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 1 _________________________________________________

 2

 3 IN THE MATTER OF:

 4

 5

 6 INTERVIEW WITH JOHN RAMSEY

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 8 _________________________________________________

 9

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11 TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW

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13 VOLUME 1 OF 4

14 PAGES 1 - 246

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19 JUNE 23RD, 1998

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0002

 1 FOR JOHN RAMSEY'S INTERVIEW,

 2 THE FOLLOWING WERE PRESENT

 3

 4 LOU SMIT

 5 MIKE KANE

 6 BRYAN MORGAN

 7 DAVID WILLIAMS

 8

 9

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0003

 1 LOU SMIT: Today's date is Tuesday the

 2 23rd of June 1998. The time is right at 9 o'clock.

 3 What I'd like to have done, and there's a lot of

 4 people that aren't on the camera, and for voice

 5 identification and everything, I'd like everyone

 6 to identify themselves and I'll start with myself

 7 and we'll just go clockwise. I'm Lou Smit. I'm an

 8 investigator for the Boulder County District

 9 Attorney's office. I've been working on this case

10 since March of 1996 -- 1997, I'm Sorry. So John?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: John Ramsey.

12 BRYAN MORGAN: I'm Bryan Morgan, and I'm

13 John's Lawyer.

14 DAVID WILLIAMS: David Williams, and I'm

15 an investigator for Bryan Morgan.

16 MIKE KANE: Michael Kane, and I'm Deputy

17 District Attorney in Boulder County.

18 LOU SMIT: Okay. First of all, as you all

19 know, this is being audio and video recorded. And

20 that's a -- I think a real good thing to do. The

21 video is in black and white and we do have real

22 good facilities for audio recording.

23 I'd like to just start out and ask, first of all,

24 I'm so used to calling you Mr. Ramsey. Is it okay

25 to call you John?

0004

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes.

 2 LOU SMIT: John, at this particular time,

 3 do you have any medical problems at all that you

 4 know of?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

 6 LOU SMIT: Okay. Are you under, taking any

 7 medication?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Taking Prozac.

 9 LOU SMIT: Okay.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Twenty milligrams in the

11 morning, ten milligrams at night.

12 LOU SMIT: Okay. And who is the doctor?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, Dr. Sheevy, Catherine

14 Sheevy, is who I saw in Boulder. Well I haven't

15 seen her in a while. Steven Jaffee, Dr. Steven

16 Jaffee in Atlanta, prescribed the Prozac for me.

17 LOU SMIT: Okay.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: He's actually Burke's

19 psychiatrist.

20 LOU SMIT: When was the last time you took

21 a pill?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: This morning.

23 LOU SMIT: This morning. About what time?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably about 7:30.

25 LOU SMIT: And what is the dosage of that?

0005

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: 20 milligrams.

 2 LOU SMIT: And how do you actually feel,

 3 mentally, right now?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I woke up on Eastern

 5 Time, so I feel like I've been up for a while. But

 6 I'm fine.

 7 LOU SMIT: Do you have any problem with

 8 this interview continuing?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

10 LOU SMIT: Is there anything that may be

11 influencing your thoughts or your ability to think

12 clearly at this time?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

14 LOU SMIT: In the first letter I wrote to

15 you, in passing, when we were first getting

16 involved in this, I did tell you that you and your

17 family would be treated with respect, and we'd do

18 anything in our power to find the killer of your

19 daughter and bring him or her to justice. Do you

20 remember that letter?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, I do.

22 LOU SMIT: We still intend to do this. And

23 we need your help. And we do need to work

24 together.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes. Well, you folks have

0006

 1 always treated us with respect. And I think it's

 2 important for you to know from our perspective on

 3 this. We've been looking forward to this when you

 4 called, and we've been anxious to have an open

 5 dialog with the people that are trying to solve

 6 this crime. And, from the beginning, we felt that

 7 the, rightly or wrongly, that the Boulder police

 8 were not of that frame of mind. That they were,

 9 frankly, out to lynch us and that dialog was never

10 able to be established. So our intent is to just

11 be open and ongoing, and there's no higher

12 priority in our lives priority in our lives than

13 to find out who did this. If we can help do that,

14 we'll spend 24 hours a day, if we need to. So,

15 that's how Patsy and I look at this. So, we're

16 here to help.

17 LOU SMIT: All right. What I'm going to do

18 -- you sent a letter in April of 1998. And it

19 looked like a personal letter from you sent to

20 Bryan Morgan, I believe, and we got a copy. If you

21 don't mind, what I'd like to do is read that into

22 the record? Can I do that? Do you have any problem

23 with that?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: No. No problem.

25 LOU SMIT: This is -- first of all, the

0007

 1 letter that we have from Bryan Morgan is dated

 2 April 15th, 1998, and it's a hand-delivery letter,

 3 and it's addressed to Alex Hunter. And Bryan

 4 Morgan writes in his own handwriting,

 5 (Dear Alex, as you know, we proposed last week

 6 that the Ramsey's meet with Detective Smit with a

 7 Boulder police officer present. The Ramseys regret

 8 that this proposal was not accepted and won't --

 9 and want to renew their offer to meet with

10 Detective Smit. I have been instructed to deliver

11 this letter from John Ramsey to you so that you

12 may know his feelings in his words.̃

13 And it's signed John Ramsey. Mr. Ramsey, I don't

14 know if I can read your writing very well, and I

15 would like you to read it, if you will?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: (Dear Mr. Hunter, I'm writing

17 this letter because it seems difficult at times to

18 communicate through attorneys who are focused on

19 protecting my rights as a citizen. I want to be

20 very clear on our family's position. We have no

21 trust or confidence in the Boulder police. They

22 have tried, from moment they walked into our home

23 on December 26th, 1996, to convince others that

24 Patsy or I or Burke killed JonBenet. I will hold

25 them accountable forever for one thing: not

0008

 1 accepting help from people who offered it in the

 2 beginning and could have brought a wealth of

 3 experience to bear on the crime. We, myself and

 4 Patsy and Burke, John Andrew and Melinda will meet

 5 any time, anywhere, for as long as you want with

 6 investigators from your office.

 7 If the purpose of a grand jury is to be

 8 able to talk to us, that is not necessary. We want

 9 to find the killer of our daughter and sister and

10 work with you 24 hours a day to find it.̃

11 I can't refer to this thing as a person

12 frankly.

13 (If we are subpoenaed by a grand jury, we will

14 testify regardless of any previous meeting with

15 your investigators. I'm living my life for two

16 purposes now: to find the killer of JonBenet and

17 bring it to the maximum justice our society can

18 impose. While there is a rage within me that says,

19 give me a few minutes alone with this creature and

20 there won't be a need for a trial, I would then

21 have succumb to the behavior which the killer did.

22 Secondly, my living children must not have to live

23 under the legacy that our entertainment industry

24 has given them based on false information and a

25 frenzy created on our family's misery to achieve

0009

 1 substantial profit.

 2 It's time rise above all this pettiness

 3 and politics and get down to the most difficult

 4 mission: finding JonBenet's killer. That's wall we

 5 care about. The police cannot do it. I hope it is

 6 not too late to investigate this crime properly at

 7 last.

 8 Finally, I am willing and able to put up

 9 a substantial reward, one million dollars, through

10 the help of friends if this will help derive

11 information. I know this would be used against us

12 by the media dimwits. But I don't care. Please,

13 let's all do what is right to get this worst of

14 all killer in our midst. Sincerely, John Ramsey.̃

15 LOU SMIT: Thank you, John. I would just

16 like to ask you a couple things about that letter.

17 First of all, where did you write this letter at?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I was in David Williams'

19 kitchen.

20 At his counter.

21 LOU SMIT: And is that here in --

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Here in Denver. Yeah.

23 LOU SMIT: And what prompted you to write

24 that letter? I mean you hadn't written a letter

25 before like that.

0010

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: We just finally came to the

 2 end of our rope in terms of frustration with what

 3 we viewed as silliness. We, frankly, tried to

 4 communicate through -- actually it was Pat Burke,

 5 Patsy's attorney who was visiting with us and we

 6 said, look, this is ridiculous --

 7 BRYAN MORGAN: Excuse me. I really can't

 8 get into, and let John get into conversations that

 9 happened with the lawyers. That's a problem that I

10 just have to protect. Some the privileges have

11 waived for all purposes. I'm perfectly (INAUDIBLE)

12 for this conversation to be put on the record if

13 there's an understanding that this is not a

14 waiver. But the attorney/client privilege in

15 general. I understand, but I do have to watch out

16 for this. If that's okay with Mr. Kane, and it's

17 not a full-scale waiver, then go ahead and you may

18 talk about that conversation.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay. Well, we were, I guess

20 very frustrated that we couldn't seem to get off

21 the dime with a serious investigation with good

22 communication. There seemed to be just a lot of

23 frivolous motives floating around that were

24 preventing a serious investigation from taking

25 place. And we asked Pat to communicate with the

0011

 1 district attorney's office, that we were here, we

 2 would meet with them right now if they wanted to.

 3 But let's get this thing figured out. And,

 4 frankly, in listening to Pat say what I wanted to

 5 say over the phone, I could see that there was a

 6 filtering going on, not intentionally, but a

 7 filtering of my emotions. And so I sat down and

 8 wrote the letter and I said to Brian, I said,

 9 (Here, you either deliver this or tear it up, but

10 don't change it.̃ And he called me about a week

11 later and said, (Well, I just delivered it.̃ And

12 that's how the letter came about.

13 LOU SMIT: Okay. I would like to ask you

14 just a little bit. It seems to me like the letter

15 indicates that this is a 100 percent commitment on

16 your part?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

18 LOU SMIT: What limitations do you have on

19 that? Are there any limitations that you're

20 putting on this?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: None. We want -- as long as

22 we are working with an objective investigation,

23 there are no limitations.

24

25 LOU SMIT: So we can contact you at any time?

0012

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely, as far as I'm

 2 concerned.

 3 LOU SMIT: Have you talked to Bryan

 4 about this? I'm mean this has always been a

 5 problem. What's been happening is that, we want to

 6 conduct an investigation. We go through the

 7 lawyers at the District Attorney's office. We're

 8 obligated to always go through an attorney if a

 9 person is represented by an attorney.

10 We cannot even contact John or Patsy

11 in person without going through attorneys. And by

12 the time it gets from two of our attorneys to four

13 of your attorneys, and a decision is made and

14 comes back, a great deal of time is expended. And

15 I'm not saying that it has to be that way. I'm

16 just saying, is there a way that we can streamline

17 this process. Because there's going to times,

18 especially if we're working in the intruder

19 theory, that we're going to want to just make a

20 telephone call. I know, because of this and the

21 focus of that's on this case, that's a very

22 difficult thing to do. And I know that lawyers

23 want to protect their client.

24 A lot of times I may come up with a name or one of

25 the investigators may come up with a name. We just

0013

 1 want to say, (John, do you know who this is?̃

 2 (No.̃ I don't know what can be arranged. That's up

 3 to the lawyers and people to do. But, John, I

 4 don't know how you feel. But then --

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I --

 6 LOU SMIT: -- I'm not going to advise you

 7 on that. But I'm just letting you know.

 8 BRYAN MORGAN: Let me say this much. And I,

 9 I want to spare everybody a long speech. But, I

10 take it that at least you, Detective Smit,

11 understand why we truly do not believe that we

12 have any confidence in the Boulder Police

13 Department. When we have given leads to the

14 Boulder Police Department, those leads have been

15 turned around and used to poison the well against

16 us. With the people that we have good faith said,

17 (You at least should consider looking into . . .̃

18 and I (INAUDIBLE) but I won't.

19 So, what I would do, and John follows his

20 own lead. It was John who wrote that letter; it

21 was not with my prompting. And he did it because

22 of the frustration he felt at not being able to

23 communicate. The background of that was, we had

24 made an offer to Commander Becker to sit and talk,

25 and the offer was essentially rejected unless it

0014

 1 could be this, that and the other. And that was

 2 not what John had in mind.

 3 I will put it this way. Let us see how long

 4 we go this week. Let us see and make our own

 5 judgment at the end of it (INAUDIBLE). What was

 6 happening and what sort of investigation is being

 7 run. And then I will talk with John, and John, as

 8 always, will do what he sees fit. We do not want

 9 to put impediments in the course of any sort of

10 conversation of the type you described: (John, do

11 you know this person? Can you tell us anything

12 about this subject, this object?̃

13 We don't want to put blockages there, but,

14 because half of everything we talk about winds up

15 being printed in the press and turned against us

16 in half-truths. We have a long history of being

17 very skeptical; not at you and not at the district

18 attorney's office. Let's see if we can get over

19 it. I say let's go through the next several days

20 and we'll see where we are.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, you know, we would

22 -- the last thing in our mind on December 26th,

23 was that we would be considered suspects. It was

24 hard for us to believe that we were considered

25 suspects. We accepted that and there's been a

0015

 1 countless number of instances where believe not

 2 only were we suspects, but we were hunted

 3 suspects. And these fellows, frankly, in my mind

 4 were there to protect us as citizens and protect

 5 our rights.

 6 I would love not to have attorneys and

 7 let's get on with this and figure out who did

 8 this. And I'm encouraged that the investigation

 9 that has started now, started with the meeting

10 with Burke and Dan Schuler and Pete Hofstrom is

11 the start of what should have happened 18 months

12 ago. And so I'm very encouraged and look at this

13 as a fresh start, I guess. It should have happened

14 18 months ago.

15 Frankly, if we're wrong, we owe a lot of

16 people an apology. But our view is that the

17 cruelty that was willfully imposed on us and our

18 family by Boulder police was only exceeded by what

19 the killer did to us. And that's our perspective.

20 and so that's behind us, let's move forward and,

21 you know, we've said it, we said it for 18 months

22 that, you know, we'll be here 24 hours a day if we

23 need, if that's helpful. So, I mean that's how I

24 feel.

25 LOU SMIT: Well, you know, it just seems

0016

 1 what the public perception of it is: is that you

 2 offered to do this in the past, to come in and to

 3 talk. And then all of a sudden you don't talk. For

 4 instance, like that CNN interview, for instance

 5 where you said you'd be in --

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: And we came back to Boulder

 7 and it was extremely difficult. Patsy, as we came

 8 over that hill coming down the valley, Patsy broke

 9 down in tears. We almost turned around and went

10 back to stay in Denver. But we were coming back to

11 help with how, you know, what we could help with.

12 And we sat down with Mike Bynum the next morning

13 and he said, (Look, there's something you aught to

14 know. Here's what the police are doing. And they

15 refuse to release your daughter's body for burial

16 until you came in for an interrogation.̃ And he

17 was in tears.

18 LOU SMIT: Now this was after June?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: This was after June. He said,

20 (I took care of it.̃ He said, (We had a lot of

21 shouting matches and it was taken care of. But you

22 need to understand these people are not your

23 friends.̃ So we kind of sat back and said, (whoa.̃

24 And that set the or reset our perception against,

25 I guess, of what was really going on. And so, then

0017

 1 we offered -- I remember once offered -- we were

 2 in very bad shape. We were in shock, we were on

 3 medication. We went to bed at 6 o'clock at night.

 4 And we offered -- until we finally worked out

 5 we're okay. We're going to come in Wednesday

 6 morning when the police came back and said, (No,

 7 no, no. Six o'clock Friday night we want you to be

 8 here alone.̃ We're not even capable of holding a

 9 conversation that time of day. And it was, to us,

10 very obvious what they're trying to do.

11 And so this whole arena of trust just went

12 from, frankly, total trust on the morning of the

13 26th to zero trust by two weeks later. And it

14 never has gotten any better. And so it's been very

15 frustrating for us as we look at our daughter and

16 the life of the precious child that was lost and

17 we're dealing with all this pettiness. And then

18 one detective said, (Well, you know, there's a lot

19 of careers on the line here.̃ And my answer was,

20 (Careers? I don't even care about careers. And

21 that's the problem. Your motive is wrong.̃

22 But, you know, we've been hurt as much as

23 we can be hurt. Nobody can hurt us anymore. And

24 we've been hurt. Let's sit down and figure out who

25 the heck did this. But we never could seem to get

0018

 1 to that point where there was an honest effort on

 2 both parties' parts.

 3 LOU SMIT: You know, gentlemen, I know this

 4 is going to be a tough question. I'm kind of

 5 winging it here. But some people even say that no

 6 matter what, a parent would come in. even if you

 7 were feeling bad. How do you answer that?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: We've made lot's of offers to

 9 come in. the day after the 27th they came over the

10 Fernie's where we were staying, in horribly bad

11 shape. I slept on the floor that night and then we

12 did well to get up the next day.

13 The police came in and we sat and talked with

14 them. They said, (Well, you know, we really want

15 you to come down to the station for an interview.̃

16 We said, (Look, we will talk to you the following

17 morning. But we can't leave this sanctuary, this

18 home.̃ It was just beyond our mental capacity to

19 get up, get dressed, go out into the media frenzy,

20 which was starting to develop.

21 And there's always been that offer on our part.

22 And it was always rejected in the condition, in

23 such a manner that we said, look, these people are

24 up to no good as far as we're concerned.

25 So, yeah, if could have called out the National

0019

 1 Guard, I would have, if it had been in power. That

 2 was my first reaction that morning. Let's close

 3 the airport, let's put up roadblocks. What we got

 4 to do here? But I finally just lost total

 5 confidence in the Boulder Police. There's no

 6 sense. We stared our own investigation last summer

 7 because we, we didn't think anybody else was

 8 investigating the crime.

 9 MIKE KANE: John's attorney said there were

10 certain conditions and they were put on. What

11 conditions are you talking about specifically so

12 we can --

13 JOHN RAMSEY: By the police?

14 MIKE KANE: Yeah.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, on the 27th, they said,

16 (Well, we want you to come to the police station.̃

17 We said, (We're mentally not capable.̃ Our family

18 doctor was there. He said Patsy was in no

19 condition to leave this house. They said, (Well,

20 we've got to have you come to the police station.̃

21 I said why, he said, (Well we have records there

22 we want to pull out and look at.̃

23 And we said, (We can't. If you come here we'll

24 spend as much time as you want. But we physically

25 cannot be there.̃ And that's when Mike Bynum

0020

 1 stepped in and said, wait a minute, time out. And

 2 he was there delivering food; he's a friend of

 3 mine and he happened to be an attorney and he

 4 smelled a rat, frankly.

 5 LOU SMIT: Now this was while you were at

 6 Fernie's?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

 8 LOU SMIT: Is that the first time that you

 9 contacted the lawyer, that they contacted you?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: He was there. He was bringing

11 food over from Pasta Jay's, and just happened to

12 be there when the police were trying to haul us

13 down to the police station, and he said time out.

14 He took me inside and he said, (John, there's some

15 things going here. Would you allow me to do what I

16 think is necessary?̃ and I said, (Of course.̃

17 LOU SMIT: And what did he do, John?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember, but you'd

19 have to ask him, I guess. But I suspect what he

20 did is take the police aside and say, stop. You

21 cannot do what you're doing to these people. And

22 he arranged to bring Bryan in and Pat and were

23 just kind of on autopilot there. And frankly,

24 skeptical, why did we need to do this.

25 But as time went on we became more and more

0021

 1 confused of what the police trying to do. They

 2 were trying to put a square peg in a round hole,

 3 and we're the square peg. And, you know, it was an

 4 extremely frustrating time for us. It still is.

 5 Cause we know we didn't do it; there's a killer

 6 out there.

 7 LOU SMIT: Well, right now, John, it sounds

 8 a lot to me like you're kind of letting go of the

 9 lawyer and coming down. It's almost like starting

10 over. It just seems to happen, just in your own

11 words, how you explained that.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I would love not to have

13 attorneys in the middle of this. In fact, as long

14 as we are considered suspects in the murder case,

15 I got to have an attorney. That's the way I look

16 at it. That's always kind of been my guideline. If

17 it was said to us in January, (Look we don't

18 really think you are suspects,̃ I would have no

19 need for an attorney. But that's, you know, the

20 police said we're under an umbrella of suspicion.

21 Frankly, I think if they were honest about it,

22 they should say we're their number one suspect and

23 there are no other.

24 That's what we believe. Now, if we're wrong, we're

25 horribly wrong. But given that, and that's our

0022

 1 belief, you know, having guidance, I guess, in

 2 this whole area to protect us is important. You

 3 know, we've had detectives come in. They came in

 4 one morning into my son's apartment, college

 5 students, and barged in and, (we want to talk to

 6 you boys.̃ And they said, well one of the kids

 7 said, (Well, gee, I need to call my dad and maybe

 8 talk to his attorney.̃ The detective said, (Well,

 9 innocent people don't need attorneys.̃ And what a

10 slam, you know.

11 LOU SMIT: That is, you know, that's the

12 perception that (INAUDIBLE) have.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's -- the law in the

14 hands of bigots is a dangerous thing. And,

15 frankly, that's what we have here.

16 LOU SMIT: If I might just make a couple

17 comments on that. You know, I've been here like

18 for 16 (INAUDIBLE) and it appears as though the

19 investigation focuses on two areas: the Ramseys

20 and on an intruder.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

22 LOU SMIT: And I know that a lot of work

23 has been done in regards to you. But see, John, I

24 have to stick up for the Boulder Police Department

25 a little bit. I don't know what all personally

0023

 1 went with you. But they initially focused on you

 2 because of certain things that happened in the

 3 house and that they found. And you were in the

 4 house. So, as a detective, I myself would have

 5 probably have done that. I would have probably

 6 said, (Wait a minute, I got to put you on the

 7 front burner, John.̃ And I gotta do that.

 8 So, in fairness to them, I think that they

 9 started off doing what detectives do. They take

10 the most logical thing that's happened. You were

11 there; there were strange circumstances that

12 occurred and we'll get into these here a little

13 bit later. And so they would focus on you

14 initially. And I would. I'd do the same thing. And

15 I'd concentrate my investigation on you. And

16 really, what detectives do, they aren't supposed

17 to make judgments. What they are supposed to do is

18 to focus on an area of the investigation and

19 collect and record information. That's what

20 detectives do. That's all we're supposed to do.

21 Then we're supposed to take this information to a

22 prosecutor or to other people that evaluate this

23 information. And then they make a determination as

24 to whether there will be charges filed.

25 So really, as detectives, even on the Boulder

0024

 1 Police Department, that's what they were doing

 2 initially, is gathering information. And, sure,

 3 they gathered a whole lot of it. And, John, on

 4 this area, there's going to be way more

 5 information gathered.

 6 But that's how I would look at it. It's

 7 information. I'm not going conclude that you're

 8 guilty because of this. And I'm not going to

 9 conclude that an intruder is guilty. I'm going to

10 collect information and then let other people

11 evaluate that. What do you say to that?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: We are comfortable with that.

13 We never objected to being looked at. We

14 understand that, logically, we were in the house.

15 Okay. We accept that in an objective

16 investigation. What became concerning to us is,

17 our investigators, you know, had a tip line;

18 they'd get calls, you know. I tried to call the

19 Boulder police for five days for a month. They

20 won't return my call. I have a lead, you know. I'm

21 anxious to tell someone.

22 I lost count of the number of times that happened.

23 It started to occur to us that they're just

24 blowing off the other inputs on this. You know,

25 they're so focused on the Ramseys that nothing

0025

 1 else is getting looked at. We said early on,

 2 (Look, you're spending too much time on us. Look

 3 elsewhere as well and we'll be fine.̃ But we never

 4 got comfortable that there was anything going on

 5 but a 100 percent focus on the Ramseys.

 6 LOU SMIT: No, John, just from looking at

 7 the case report, and again, in respect of the

 8 police department, they have looked into other

 9 areas. I know that there's been a lot of focus on

10 you, but I looked at every one of those reports.

11 There's been a lot of work done in other ways. And

12 I know from your perception it seems like that --

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

14 LOU SMIT: -- but they have done a lot of

15 work.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, and I say, we may be

17 totally wrong and owe a lot of apologies, but what

18 I want to do is just frame what our perception is

19 so you understand.

20 LOU SMIT: Well, when you're through being

21 put under the microscope with inspection, it will

22 point to what actually happened. The microscope

23 can't lie. But the person that looks through it

24 possible can interpret it different.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we know a lot of effort

0026

 1 has been put into this and we're grateful for

 2 that. And, you know, I sometimes find myself

 3 thinking, (Gee, those guys are working their butts

 4 off and we're criticizing them.̃ But then

 5 something will come up which will just confirm our

 6 suspicions. And so we've never been able to get

 7 over that trust area.

 8 And I don't mind having -- we've got nothing to

 9 hide. They can look at anything and ask us

10 anything and, that's always been our position. But

11 I guess there's got to be a level of trust in the

12 objectivity of the -- in the relationship, I

13 guess, with the investigation. I've never done

14 this before.

15 It's very hurtful to have be what you thought was

16 a very good parent and a loving parent, and then

17 to have lost a child, and then to be accused of,

18 at least, accused by inclusion in the suspect

19 list, of hurting your child. It's beyond anything

20 you can comprehend was possible.

21 LOU SMIT: How is Patsy doing?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy is doing pretty good.

23 She's, as she said, very well. She's been hurt as

24 much as she could be hurt. So there's nothing else

25 that anybody can do to her that would hurt her

0027

 1 anymore than the loss of JonBenet. So we can take

 2 a lot of blows once you've taken a big one like

 3 that.

 4 LOU SMIT: Okay. If I can continue this a

 5 little bit here. Bryan, do you have any comments

 6 you would like to make in regards to that? I mean

 7 --

 8 BRYAN MORGAN: I have a lot of comments

 9 I'd

10 like to make about how this attitude came about.

11 But, frankly, I don't think that's productive.

12 LOU SMIT: Okay.

13 BRYAN MORGAN: I'm happy to document the

14 reasons why we acted the way we did. I seriously

15 doubt anybody running a professional investigation

16 would have done the media lakes that still occur.

17 And I'm not convinced people are just gathering

18 information and trying to give it to the district

19 attorney. I think they're still fighting a media

20 war (INAUDIBLE) side just to try to get the

21 district attorney's office to file charges.

22 So, I'll leave it at that.

23 LOU SMIT: Okay.

24 BRYAN MORGAN: I don't think that's the way

25 you operate. And we'll go forward.

0028

 1 MIKE KANE: Yeah. And, for the record, the

 2 investigator is biting his tongue through all of

 3 this.

 4 BRYAN MORGAN: Never mind. Let's go, let's

 5 go. They need to talk to this man, not us.

 6 LOU SMIT: Okay. Let's -- if we catch the

 7 person that did this, if we catch the killer, and

 8 we've never lost confidence that we can, we're

 9 going to need to prosecute him or her. And we do

10 want a conviction on this person. And we want him

11 punished as payment for that horrible and brutal

12 crime they committed. And do you agree with this?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: One hundred percent.

14 LOU SMIT: First of all, the defense most

15 likely would be that you and patsy are the, if we

16 catch him, that you and Patsy are the ones

17 involved in (INAUDIBLE). And I think that's

18 probably going to be (INAUDIBLE) if we do catch

19 this guy. And they may think that we can't

20 eliminate you as a suspect. So, for that reason

21 alone, we must take steps now to prove your

22 innocence.

23 And I know one thing about investigation: it

24 shouldn't only be used to prove guilt, but

25 innocence as well. And that's why we need all of

0029

 1 the help that you can give us. Now, we cannot

 2 actively pursue and convict this individual if you

 3 and Patsy are in the way of the investigation.

 4 We've got to get past you, and the sooner the

 5 better.

 6 For the past year and a half, you and Patsy have

 7 been in the picture. In fact, you have been the

 8 picture. There's been very little room for anyone

 9 else. This procedure is not going to be easy. What

10 we're going to be going through, even at the

11 district attorney's office. In fact, you may

12 perceive it, even though it seems like you have

13 trust and confidence in us, that it's going to be

14 harsh, cruel, insensitive, uncaring and demeaning.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I trust you objectivity and

16 your experience.

17 LOU SMIT: Okay.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: That's what I trust. And that's

19 all we've ever asked for in the investigation.

20 LOU SMIT: But you may feel this.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: That's fine. We put ourselves

22 up for that.

23 LOU SMIT: If you think you were under a

24 magnifying glass with the police department, you

25 better be aware that you'll be place under more

0030

 1 scrutiny now. You'll be looked at under a

 2 microscope, like I mentioned before, by the

 3 prosecutors.

 4 My role, as I see it, is to work towards

 5 investigating the case and collecting and

 6 recording information. Mike Kane, even, was hired

 7 to look into the grand jury proceedings. He and

 8 others involved in the case will take a fair look

 9 at all of the information obtained, and will look

10 very closely into all aspects of the case.

11 We will both be asking questions in different ways

12 in our own areas from now on. In our discussion,

13 Mike emphasized that he will look, not only into

14 family involvement, but he'll look into the

15 intruder aspect of it also. In many instances it

16 will seem that we're concentrating only on you and

17 Patsy. And in some cases we will be. However, not

18 necessarily to convict, but also to prove

19 innocence. And that's what I mentioned before.

20 When everything is completed, the truth should be

21 evident and you should be able to go on with your

22 lives in a fairly normal way.

23 Now, Mike, do you have anything to day at this

24 time?

25 MICHALE KANE: I do. Mr. Ramsey, I'm somewhat

0031

 1 new on the scene here. We've never been

 2 introduced. But I just wanted to say, I mean from

 3 a prosecutor's perspective, I come into this as a

 4 lawyer and probably not even just as a lawyer, as

 5 a prosecutor with a different mentality.

 6 Investigators go out and dig up leads and

 7 information.

 8 I always think in terms of down the road. I'm sure

 9 Bryan is the same way, when you're evaluating

10 things, you're think: how is going to be in court;

11 how is this going to play out. And so it gives me

12 from a different perspective in some regards.

13 The one thing that I wanted to emphasize, and with

14 what Lou has been saying is that, let's

15 (INAUDIBLE) down the road that someday there's

16 evidence that develops against an individual in

17 your home that night. And enough evidence develops

18 that we can file charges against that individual.

19 And, in short of some kind of confession or

20 whatever, we have to go to trial and prove that

21 person's guilt. There is no question, and you've

22 seen it because you've lived with it for a year

23 and a half, there is no question that the defense

24 is going to be, (It wasn't my guy. It was the

25 people living in the house.̃

0032

 1 And, of course, as a prosecutor, our goal is to

 2 prove guilt of that individual beyond a reasonable

 3 doubt. And the flip side of that is, that the

 4 defense only has to suggest to create a reasonable

 5 doubt that maybe you were involved.

 6 And so from my perspective, and I think Lou and I

 7 talked about this since the day I came in, and

 8 everybody in the D.A.'s office, I think, looked at

 9 it the same way. In fact, as Lou said, we have to

10 prove -- if we're going to prove it's an intruder,

11 we have to prove your innocence.

12 And what that means is, is that a defense attorney

13 is going to go after you with a lot of very tough

14 questions to suggest that reasonable doubt. That

15 means I have to do the same thing. Because I have

16 to know the answers before any defense attorney

17 brings them up in the trial.

18 So I just want you to understand that, if I ask a

19 question, and I read your interviews with the

20 police department before. I know how it can get

21 uncomfortable if you get (INAUDIBLE). Would you

22 please try to understand, I'm going to ask a

23 question because I'm going to play the role that a

24 defense attorney is going to play and I just have

25 to hear what the answer will be.

0033

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that's an interesting

 2 perspective. It's one I hadn't even thought about

 3 is. I mean, my hope is that, you know, this person

 4 is caught and they confess, and that's it. And

 5 there's some --

 6 MIKE KANE: I mean --

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: -- some piece of evidence that

 8 confirms their confession and off we go. But I

 9 never thought of that scenario, frankly.

10 MIKE KANE: Well, let me just add. So

11 truthfully it becomes absolutely -- you were in

12 the Navy. And there's a term -- I was never in the

13 Navy, but I know that there's a term called

14 (quibbling̃, and you know what quibbling is?

15 Technically true, but misleading.

16 So it's very important to not only give the truth,

17 the technical truth, but there's no quibbling

18 about it. But if something doesn't fit, but it's

19 the truth, just tell us the truth and we'll deal

20 with that.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.

22 LOU SMIT: You know, Mike also has assured

23 me in many discussions that we've talked about,

24 that there will be a two-way investigation.

25 Definitely. In other words, investigations that we

0034

 1 can cover the aspects he just said and also into

 2 the intruder. So, he has assured me that, and

 3 thank God we can do more on that, maybe no. I

 4 don't know. I think we can. Part of the thing I

 5 want do with you while you're here is, I've got a

 6 tone of leads that I would like to discuss with

 7 you.

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Wonderful.

 9 LOU SMIT: And it won't be coming right away,

10 but that's why I didn't know how much time you had

11 to spend with us.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: We're here indefinitely as

13 far as I'm concerned. So, you know.

14 LOU SMIT: Would you like to take a little

15 break or anything or are you just --?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I'm fine. If this would

17 have been said to us 18 months ago, it would have

18 been a whole different picture, frankly. So, I

19 mean, I'm frankly, I would love to not have

20 attorneys. I mean, first of all, they've depleted

21 most of most of my life savings. But, to say

22 regretfully, I concluded that they are necessary.

23 LOU SMIT: We'll get on it (INAUDIBLE). We

24 have to proceed, because it's just too important

25 for us to --

0035

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Well anyway. You know,

 2 I think about all the man-hours and the focus and

 3 the sacrifices I know you've made to find this

 4 killer. And, on behalf of JonBenet, thank you.

 5 LOU SMIT: I appreciate that. And there

 6 has been a lot of others that have done the same.

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I know. I know that.

 8 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) detectives in court

 9 themselves --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I know they have. I know they

11 have.

12 LOU SMIT: Okay. We'll restart at 20 till

13 10 and we'll just kind of continue on with this.

14 But it's going a lot quicker than what I thought

15 and that's real good.

16 Now we have amassed pages and pages of questions

17 and from all kinds of sources, and there's almost

18 too many questions to handle, even at this time.

19 It's just that people have come in, the Boulder

20 Police Department has come in and they have

21 experts that supplied us with questions. They knew

22 were coming in today. And so we got questions from

23 a lot of different areas. And some of them are

24 hard questions; some of them are just normal

25 questions. Some of them we're going to have to

0036

 1 ask, the majority of them. There are certain

 2 questions that I'm sure that we won't be able to

 3 do that.

 4 That's part of this procedure. You're here and we

 5 can do this at this time. It seems like they need

 6 most of the information. So we'll just go from

 7 there. And I don't know if I said this before, but

 8 it's our job to prove innocence, not yours.

 9 You know, I was going to ask you if there was any

10 place you would like to start this because I want

11 you to feel comfortable in this interview.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I think I wanted you to

13 know our perspective, which I think we talked

14 about. So where (INAUDIBLE) start is fine.

15 LOU SMIT: Okay. Did you have any specific

16 questions about certain things in the case or

17 evidence (INAUDIBLE). There's some things I give

18 answers to and there's some things that I can't.

19 But I'll try, within certain limits, to answer

20 your questions too. But I'd appreciate if you

21 would kind of hold them until a little bit later

22 and we'll see what we can do about that.

23 And we're just going to just start. This is right

24 off the bat, John. Give us your thoughts and

25 feelings as to what happened to your daughter that

0037

 1 night? Personal. Any kind of thoughts.

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, you hope that she didn't

 3 suffer. And if I let myself think beyond that,

 4 it's too difficult. But my hope is that she didn't

 5 suffer. And, as far as (INAUDIBLE) this, I don't

 6 know. Like I have not let myself think about that

 7 too much, frankly.

 8 LOU SMIT: have you or your investigative

 9 team discussed different aspects of this as to

10 what could have happened? Do you have any insight

11 on that? You've been probably investigating this

12 for, you know, the length of time that we have. I

13 mean, if it's not you, obviously it has to be

14 (INAUDIBLE).

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

16 LOU SMIT: What is your perspective on that?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think, obviously we

18 know it was an intruder, first of all. We spend

19 some time with John Douglas, who is a profiler for

20 the FBI, and he basically said it's someone that

21 you know. It's somebody that's been in the house

22 and it's somebody that's angry with you or

23 jealous. And, you know, we try to put that box

24 around it. We come up and say that we don't know

25 anybody that evil. And so it's very difficult for

0038

 1 us to say, well you know it must have been

 2 so-and-so, because we don't know anybody that

 3 evil.

 4 We were getting to be a little more higher profile

 5 in the community than I was comfortable with. I

 6 thought about security, hadn't done really done

 7 anything about it. But there'd been an article in

 8 the paper a couple weeks before about our company

 9 had just past a billion dollars in sales. And I

10 had this gut feeling when they wanted to do that

11 publicity, that we shouldn't do it. But they had

12 it already rolling and they'd contacted the

13 camera. So I let them go ahead and do it.

14 I don't know if that kind of publicity elevated

15 this in somebody's mind. JonBenet was in a

16 Christmas parade, the December Christmas Parade.

17 In retrospect, after, you know, that was something

18 which she shouldn't have done.

19 One of the things I guess we realized about

20 all this, there's some very nice people. There's

21 some very good people in the world and there's

22 some very bad people. They're around you and you

23 just better be aware of them. And we were naive.

24 We felt we were in a safe community. We thought

25 all people were like us, basically pretty good

0039

 1 people. And that's not true.

 2 So I wonder if those, either of those two events

 3 might have elevated us into the cross hairs of

 4 this maniac. And if they were angry at me, why

 5 didn't they take it out on me? If they were angry

 6 at me, why didn't they take it out on my son? Why

 7 JonBenet?

 8 LOU SMIT: Why do you say (theỹ John?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: (It.̃ I don't feel I have

10 (INAUDIBLE). I mean, I don't know. I mean, I in my

11 mind think that there's one person; one creature.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you have a mental picture of

13 this person?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. I thought about that.

15 Again, that's too hard to think about.

16 LOU SMIT: Okay. And I know, John, that it

17 really hurts to talk about this guy, but that's

18 probably all you've thought about since day one.

19 You must have a mental picture of the type of

20 person this is. I mean, in your mind. I know I

21 have a mental picture of various people that I

22 would look at. But I'm sure you think about this

23 all the time.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, absolutely, everyday. You

25 know. Of course, my first instinct is, it was a

0040

 1 man. Because of some of the similarities,

 2 apparently in Patsy's handwriting, I wondered if

 3 it was a woman. The ransom note seemed childish,

 4 in terms of a young person. I think this person

 5 was very sick or trying to be very clever.

 6 You know, if they really wanted to do this, hurt

 7 us and walk away, why did they go to the trouble

 8 of leaving a ransom note? When Mike Bynum said,

 9 (Thank God they left a ransom note.̃ You know, why

10 is that? And it finally dawned on me what he

11 meant. They left us a piece of evidence. They were

12 clever enough not to leave much else, apparently.

13 I think it's say somebody that's very sick, thinks

14 they're very clever, is playing games. You know,

15 we heard about the two Bible verses, Psalms, that

16 were circled in some book. I don't know, some

17 book or not. I was not told that directly. We

18 heard it through the backdoor.

19 LOU SMIT: You didn't circle Bible passages?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE). They were leaving

21 little clues to analyze this. I think entry was

22 gained through the basement window.

23 LOU SMIT: Why do you think that?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Because the window was cracked

25 open. There was this large suitcase under it, as

0041

 1 if it was used to climb out. That suitcase didn't

 2 belong there. I think the person was in the house,

 3 if not when we got home, shortly after. I think

 4 she was killed that night, versus in the morning.

 5 LOU SMIT: What makes you think that?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the note talked about

 7 (I'm going to call you tomorrow.̃ And we debated,

 8 it was like tomorrow tomorrow, or tomorrow today.

 9 And, of course, we hoped it was today, you know,

10 the 26th. When I found her, she was -- her body

11 was cooled. Her arms were stiff. And that was it.

12 (INAUDIBLE) that morning.

13 Yet it was ironic that we were home that night. We

14 were leaving the next day for a second Christmas

15 with our older children and then we were coming

16 back from there. And we had bought and paid for

17 tickets on the (Big Red Boat.̃ It was to be our

18 first family cruise, first time we'd ever taken a

19 cruise. The kids were looking forward to that. And

20 it was just our misfortune that we were home that

21 night, or somebody knew our schedule. I don't

22 know.

23 LOU SMIT: See, John, we're going to get

24 into a lot of that, in specifics. That's why I'm

25 glad you're bringing it up a little bit now,

0042

 1 because it's in your mind. And later on we'll take

 2 all of those specific items and we'll kind of go

 3 over it. And then we're going to look at what was

 4 said, and then we may go over them again, because

 5 I that may prompt more questions as we go.

 6 That's why I wanted to kind of just test you

 7 recall and just see how you felt about that.

 8 There's been a lot of speculation by a lot of

 9 people that maybe you didn't know anything about

10 the murder, but maybe Patsy did. I know that's a

11 hard question. It's one of the hard ones I have to

12 ask you. But what do you fell about that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Monstrous. I mean, Patsy loves

14 both her children dearly. But frankly, she and

15 JonBenet were extremely close and Patsy fought

16 back from Stage Four ovarian cancer, which

17 probably, she had it five years ago, would have

18 been fatal in a few months. She fought back to

19 live so she could be with the children. And I knew

20 that. And she said that later, she said that she

21 was too young to leave those children. That kept

22 her going and it gave her the will to fight to

23 beat it. And she beat it.

24 Plus she's probably the kindest, least

25 mean-spirited person I know. There's not a mean

0043

 1 bone in Patsy's body against anyone, let alone her

 2 children. So, it's just, I mean it's absolutely

 3 out of the question.

 4 LOU SMIT: See, John, I know these are really

 5 tough. And that's why we have to go into them,

 6 because the defense attorney is going to do all of

 7 this in spades and, not only that, but we have to

 8 know the answers to questions which people

 9 perceive. They have their own perception on a

10 question. And it's a lot better to have it come

11 out of your mouth, and we'll bring up these things

12 again.

13 And that's why, you know, Patsy's demeanor,

14 we're going to really go into that. We need to

15 have answers to all of that so that people don't

16 perceive it in a different way. And, again, all of

17 this is information that we're collecting. What

18 better place, than from you? That's what I said

19 since the beginning. You are our best source of

20 information. And here we haven't been able to

21 contact you or do that.

22 So, what do you want to happen to the person who

23 did this?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought about that everyday.

25 And there's certainly the Christian side of me

0044

 1 that says, you know, forgive others' trespasses.

 2 But what I've concluded is, that, you know, that

 3 there is forgiveness, but there is accountability.

 4 And this person must be held accountable.

 5 Now, okay, what's accountability? I've gone from,

 6 you know, hang him by the neck until dead in the

 7 public square to put a tattoo on his forehead that

 8 said, (I killed JonBenet,̃ and let him go through

 9 life that way. But that's the rage within me.

10 Sometimes it's just is there, frankly. But, you've

11 got to try to put in the Christian perspective as

12 to what -- how should I really feel.

13 Fundamentally, I would want the harshest, cruelest

14 treatment that our society can put on an

15 individual for doing this.

16 LOU SMIT: Including?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I think, to me, the worst

18 thing that you can do is put a tattoo on his

19 forehead that said, (I'm a child killer,̃ and let

20 him go out in the street. We've had to live with

21 this for 18 months. We'll have to live with this

22 for the rest of our lives.

23 My family, my children, this has affected a lot of

24 lives. Plus, JonBenet's life has been lost. She

25 could have been a significant contributor to the

0045

 1 world and that opportunity is gone. And whoever

 2 did this needs to suffer.

 3 LOU SMIT: You know, you mentioned religion

 4 before. I think even in our past, we briefly

 5 discussed that. Tell us a little bit about your

 6 religious beliefs? And I know this is a personal

 7 thing; I know it is personal to me. If you don't

 8 mind, just kind of --

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I mean, I as an occasional

10 Sunday Christian, I guess, for years. My mother

11 dragged me to church and I went regretfully and

12 reluctantly. And what you find, I think, is that

13 your spiritual foundation is that. It's a

14 foundation that you fall upon periodically in your

15 life. And it's there and it's helpful. And if it's

16 not, you're lacking. Because you're not on all the

17 time.

18 So my spiritual foundation has really grown over

19 the years. I think first, the first blocks were

20 made by my mother who dragged me to church every

21 Sunday. And then when I was divorced, I went back

22 to church and that foundation was there. It was

23 helpful.

24 And then we lost Beth, my oldest daughter, in a

25 car accident, my religious foundations were

0046

 1 shaken, big time. You know, how could that happen?

 2 How could be allowed to happen? This wonderful

 3 child, this person who had so much to give; who

 4 was kind and loving. To be killed in a car

 5 accident, where is this God, this caring loving

 6 God?

 7 But I did a lot of reading, a lot of thinking and,

 8 frankly, my foundations were strengthened

 9 ultimately by that. And when we lost JonBenet, I

10 think the foundation was there and helped

11 immensely and was further strengthened for me.

12 So it's been a spiritual growth. It's exactly

13 that. It's a growing process. You're exposed to

14 people that are ahead of you in that journey and

15 you learn from them, and hopefully help people

16 that are behind you on that journey. It's only on

17 one path; I'm not there yet. But I'm glad to say

18 that I've been growing and that's helped me deal

19 with this a lot.

20 LOU SMIT: You think your religious beliefs

21 are stronger now than what they were before?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely. Yes, they are.

23 LOU SMIT: what's in your prayers at night?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I pray that God will bring the

25 killer to the attention of the police. That He

0047

 1 will be remorseful and come forward and confess. I

 2 always try to be thankful for the blessings I

 3 have. I have three wonderful children that are

 4 still there and need me and support me. And try to

 5 keep that perspective. And praying about it helps.

 6 But I asked a good friend of mind, who's much

 7 further along in the spiritual journey than I am.

 8 I said, (Do I need to keep asking God to find this

 9 killer or is one request enough?̃ And he said keep

10 knocking. So I keep knocking.

11 LOU SMIT: Okay. That's pretty emotional.

12 Have you put any thought into what our respective

13 roles should be from this day forward? If you

14 thought about that, what are your thoughts about

15 that?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, what we want to participate

17 in is an open, ongoing dialog with the sole

18 objective of finding the killer. And if it means

19 that Patsy and I come out here and rent an

20 apartment so we're nearby, we'll do it. I mean,

21 it's that complete of a focus on our part.

22 What I'm anxious for is that this open dialog

23 starts now as it should have 18 months ago. And

24 that we work through the process that we have to

25 work through to get where we all want to get to.

0048

 1 I'm not particularly, even if these guys are great

 2 human beings, I'm not anxious to communicate

 3 through them or have to consult with them when I

 4 try to say something. But I guess I'd just been

 5 convinced by them that it was necessary early on.

 6 But I hope that's changed. I'm confident it has.

 7 So our role is to do whatever we can to assist you

 8 in what you're trying to do.

 9 LOU SMIT: Mike? I've been talking here,

10 Mike (INAUDIBLE)?

11 MIKE KANE: No. I don't have anything to

12 add,

13 I think, at this time. Down the road, like Lou

14 said, we'll probably want to get into more

15 specifics. But for right now, this is fine.

16 LOU SMIT: You know what? Just a thought

17 popped into my mind, I just wrote a little note.

18 Can you talk about your daughter a bit? Near your

19 nightstand on your bed there was a book on dying?

20 How did that get there and did you read that a lot

21 or what?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm not sure what book was

23 there, but I did a lot of reading after she died.

24 I did a lot of reading about, a lot of books on

25 near death experiences and life after life and Dr.

0049

 1 (INAUDIBLE). And, frankly, it was wonderfully

 2 helpful. In fact, (INAUDIBLE). At that point in my

 3 faith, I guess, I wasn't sure what the big picture

 4 was. And, see you try to really figure that out.

 5 And I read lots of books, and it was helpful to me

 6 to

 7 I mean the worst book I think I ever picked up was

 8 one that was entitled (When Good-bye is Forever.̃

 9 And that's contradictory to what you want to

10 believe. Let's hope it's not forever.

11 LOU SMIT: Is that your Christianity you're

12 talking about?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

14 LOU SMIT: And what do you consider the big

15 picture is?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: The picture is that, as a

17 Christian, I believe that there is life in the

18 flesh, there is life on earth and there is a life

19 after death. And if all there was to life was what

20 we got here on earth, what's the point? And the

21 big picture is realizing that there is more of a

22 point to life than being here and just trying to

23 make some money and drive a nice car, and it's

24 over.

25 So I read a lot. And losing Beth was extremely for

0050

 1 me. She was my oldest child. We were extremely

 2 close. She raised me, basically. And I mean I was

 3 just getting to the point where I didn't think

 4 about it a lot. I guess four, four and a half

 5 years later.

 6 LOU SMIT: John, I know that this part has

 7 been kind of you talking and everything and kind

 8 of expressing your thoughts and feelings. And I

 9 think that the next step that I might take is: I

10 am going to go into certain areas of the

11 investigation. And I'm going to go more

12 specifically into those areas. Now, do you guys

13 want to break or you fell like you might --

14 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I'm fine.

15 BRYAN MORGAN: Let's get on.

16 LOU SMIT: We're cranking here. Okay. The

17 first thing I'd like talk to talk about, I'm not

18 going to go way back into your past or anything at

19 this time. And I kind of want to start -- this is

20 shortly before the 26th. I think that the Camera

21 article came out on the 21st. And that's just form

22 recollection from me. And I'd like to ask you a

23 little bit about certain specific things about

24 that.

25 First of all, what do you remember about the

0051

 1 Camera article specifically?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I remember it talked

 3 about us crossing the billion dollar sales level.

 4 I talked to a reporter. I think they had some

 5 quotes in the article from me about (INAUDIBLE).

 6 We had a luncheon party at the Boulderado for all

 7 employees and that's about all I remember.

 8 LOU SMIT: Do you remember who the reporter

 9 was?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. But I've got the

11 article so I can find out. But I don't who it was.

12 I just talked to him on the phone.

13 LOU SMIT: Okay. It wasn't an in-person

14 interview?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

16 LOU SMIT: it was just over the phone?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

18 LOU SMIT: Did he contact you or did he --

19 JOHN RAMSEY: No, our public relations

20 girl/lady set up the interview and then handed the

21 phone at the luncheon.

22 LOU SMIT: And who was that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Joanne Velva, now Joanne

24 Andreason. I think she's still there.

25 LOU SMIT: Another thing that I have written

0052

 1 down here is: on the 21st and 22nd, actually it

 2 was on the 22nd, there was an Amerikids Pageant,

 3 and that's what I have listed in my time line. Do

 4 you remember JonBenet participating in the pageant

 5 just shortly before the Christmas?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, there was one down in

 7 Denver that she participated in. I don't remember

 8 that name. I think it's the one she got this medal

 9 at, this All Stars. But she was in that. Patsy

10 would remember exactly. It was in December some

11 time.

12 LOU SMIT: Did you go to that pageant?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I went to the talent part

14 which is always what I wanted to support JonBenet

15 on, was the talent part of it. So I'd actually

16 gone. Her talent performance was supposed to be at

17 like 3 o'clock and I got there at three and it was

18 actually ahead of scheduled because she had

19 already done it and she had one off the whole

20 thing for talent. And I walked in and she took

21 this off her neck and put it on my neck. She knew

22 that was important.

23 I had always said, you know, you have fun, you

24 know, don't worry about winning or losing but, you

25 know, work on your talent. So that was always kind

0053

 1 of like (INAUDIBLE).

 2 LOU SMIT: Did (INAUDIBLE) go to the

 3 pageants, John?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I would go to some of them,

 5 and I would go to the talent part when she was

 6 doing her performance. But I usually wouldn't go

 7 to the whole thing. That was a mother/daughter

 8 thing they just had. And that, of course, got

 9 blown way out of perspective, I believe. It was,

10 what we thought was a private setting among

11 parents and gave JonBenet a chance to develop some

12 self-confidence and presence, and it was nothing

13 more than something she and Patsy enjoyed doing

14 together.

15 LOU SMIT: Who normally went to her pageants?

16 Was it just Patsy and JonBenet or --

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well sometimes her mother

18 would go. Her sisters would go if they were here.

19 Yeah, just usually Patsy and JonBenet. Because it

20 was usually an all day deal. They'd go in the

21 morning and come back in the afternoon.

22 LOU SMIT: Well, I planned on going a little

23 bit further on in the interview, and that's when

24 we get into the itemized things. Let's kind of go

25 over the pageants a little bit and maybe you can't

0054

 1 answer all my questions.

 2 But you know there's a lot of times I'm sure

 3 JonBenet had certain training and certain people

 4 like coached her and certain people that knew her.

 5 Photographers that were involved with her. Things

 6 of that nature. And, as a detective, that's what I

 7 want to find out. And there's a lot of that in the

 8 report. Don't get me wrong. The Boulder Police

 9 Department really has done a lot of work on that.

10 And I've got a lot of that information.

11 But sometimes there's little pieces of that that

12 you miss. And sometimes you may have some type of

13 an idea or a little thought that maybe somebody

14 was a little off on this. And I'll kind of go into

15 that a little bit later. I'm just more or less

16 trying to generally cover topics at this time.

17 Okay. Now I want to go over -- the next thing I

18 want to cover is: the Christmas party for the kids

19 on the 23rd. now, if you could just in your own

20 words recall what you remember about that first?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, yeah. We had this

22 Christmas party, usually a day or two before

23 Christmas primarily for our family, friends and

24 children. And we invite Santa Claus to come and

25 we'd have presents for all the kids. And Santa

0055

 1 would give them out and hors d'oeuvres and we'd

 2 start early and usually end early. And this year,

 3 we decided, or that year of '96, we decided, well

 4 we weren't going to do that because it was a lot

 5 of effort and Patsy just had her 40th birthday

 6 party and we were kind of partied out. We had a

 7 big birthday party for Patsy.

 8 LOU SMIT: When was her birthday?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had it, it was a

10 surprise party, it was in early December. He

11 birthday is not until the 29th of December, but we

12 had a surprise birthday party in early December.

13 So we kind of decided not to do the Christmas

14 party. I think we were going to ask a friend or

15 two over. (INAUDIBLE). The Santa Claus which

16 normally came called us and said she had got

17 Charles Kuralt here doing a documentary on me and

18 he's been kind of following me around and I'd like

19 him to come to your house, you know, for your

20 Christmas party because I think it's a nice one

21 and it's one of my favorites.

22 And Patsy kind of threw together a Christmas party

23 quickly because she thought that would be fun for

24 the kids. And Patsy is a born publicist, I guess.

25 She enjoys that kind of thing. And so we invited

0056

 1 the regular crowd that always came and we put

 2 together the Christmas party.

 3 And Santa Claus came and passed out gifts and it

 4 was the standard party that we had every year. The

 5 kids decorated. I think they decorated a

 6 gingerbread house that night. Patsy went down and

 7 bought a bunch of these pre-made gingerbread

 8 houses and got big buckets of frosting and the

 9 kids were in the kitchen decorating them. One

10 thing I always wondered was whether it was really

11 Charles Kuralt.

12 LOU SMIT: Who was the person that said that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Bill Reynolds.

14 LOU SMIT: I've got some pictures and these

15 were taken. There's no numbers on these pictures,

16 and they were taken, I believe right around that

17 Christmas party. And they came out of a camera

18 that was in the house. And you can kind of look at

19 them and then may be point just --

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I can do that. You know,

21 unfortunately, you tend to suspect everyone when

22 something like this happens.

23 LOU SMIT: What I'd like you to do, John,

24 is just kind of look at the photograph and tell me

25 who's in it. And if you can remember when this was

0057

 1 taken and by who.

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Well, of course, that's

 3 myself and John Fernie. I don't know what he's got

 4 in his hand there. Must be some kind a bag. Could

 5 be that.

 6 LOU SMIT: Is that the one where he's also

 7 holding a scarf?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: He's holding a scarf. I guess

 9 it looks like -- Patsy gave all the men scarves.

10 That might have been the scarf she gave him, in

11 which case it would have been as Santa passed out

12 the gifts. She had Santa Claus usually read

13 something to the kids. That's probably what's

14 going on there.

15 LOU SMIT: Well the camera, John, is pointing

16 to a picture of Santa Claus kind of in a pensive

17 mood and Mrs. Claus is right behind him.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

19 LOU SMIT: We're going to go into Santa Claus

20 a little bit later and all kinds of Santa Clauses.

21 Because there was other Santa Clauses involved in

22 these different parties. In fact, there's even

23 indications that JonBenet may have had a secret

24 Santa Claus. Have you heard that in the past?

25 That's come up in our reports. And I'd like to

0058

 1 talk a little bit about Santa Clauses and things

 2 of that nature.

 3 But what was McReyonlds' health about that time?

 4 What was your impression?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, he claimed to be very

 6 frail and the reason that Mrs. Claus came was

 7 because he was so frail. And she struck me as just

 8 kind of there. She wasn't really into it or

 9 particularly open. And I just accepted the fact

10 that she probably didn't really want to be there,

11 but was there because he was so frail that she had

12 to be there to help him. I think that was the

13 first year she ever came.

14 LOU SMIT: Did you ever meet any of his

15 family?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Patsy met him in the mall,

17 quite frankly. He was walking down the mall in a

18 Santa Claus outfit a few years ago. He was passing

19 out candy to the kids. And Patsy's never met a

20 stranger and struck up a conversation and said,

21 (Will you come to our Christmas party.̃

22 (INAUDIBLE) and got his phone number. That was, I

23 think he'd done maybe three, maybe, parties. We

24 had three years worth.

25 LOU SMIT: Did you talk to him personally?

0059

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Just at parties. Just in

 2 passing, you know. I didn't talk to him other than

 3 as Santa Claus.

 4 LOU SMIT: How did JonBenet react?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, she was fascinated with

 6 him. Cause she loved Christmas. Kids love

 7 Christmas. And Patsy was, Christmas was the

 8 holiday that Patsy always loved to decorate for.

 9 And, you know she had cancer. And I could tell

10 that she was trying to do everything that she

11 could for the kids while she was here. She didn't

12 know -- she was in remission, but she didn't know.

13 And we never talked about it. But she didn't know

14 for sure that she'd be around when they got to be

15 18.

16 So every event like this was always a big deal and

17 Patsy made the most of it. So Christmas

18 particularly was always -- she really tried to

19 make it a kids' thing. And Santa And JonBenet

20 seemed to -- of course JonBenet was fascinated

21 with Santa Claus, and I'm sure she thought it was

22 the real Santa Claus. There was nothing fake about

23 it.

24 She apparently, the year before or two

25 years before, been given a little bottle of angel

0060

 1 dust which was from Walt Disney as a gift one

 2 night when he was there and I think it was the

 3 summer of '96 he sent us a letter saying that he

 4 was going in for, I think, it was open heart

 5 surgery and, you know, it's a serious operation,

 6 and he was taking this little bottle of angel dust

 7 that JonBenet gave to him.

 8 (UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER): (INAUDIBLE) special?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. Patsy might know.

10 So, and we were touched by that. That that meant a

11 lot to him.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you know who took these pictures?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I would guess Fleet White,

14 because he was taking pictures. But I don't know

15 for sure.

16 LOU SMIT: Just off the top of your head,

17 do you remember who was there?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. The Fernies, John and

19 Barbara Fernie. Priscilla and Fleet White. And, of

20 course, their children; both the Fernie's children

21 I think were there. Priscilla's sister and

22 boyfriend who's this fellow. I don't remember what

23 his name is, from California, was there.

24 I can look at the picture and remember some people

25 who were there. Say Don Paugh, Patsy's father. I

0061

 1 think that's Glen Stine, Susan and Glen Stine.

 2 There's Priscilla there. I think that's

 3 Priscilla's mother. Her father, I think, was

 4 there. That's Betty Barnhill, I believe, from

 5 across the street.

 6 The Barnhills, somebody came looking for the

 7 Barnhills later in the evening, knocked on the

 8 door. I let him in, he said he was looking for Joe

 9 and Betty, eh was worried about them. I said, well

10 they're in the next room and we invited him in and

11 we made him feel at home. I think we learned later

12 that he was a tenant they had living in the

13 basement. But he was there for a while.

14 LOU SMIT: What do you know about him?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Nothing. I had no idea they

16 even had a tenant over there. That's the first

17 time I had ever seen him. I thought he was just a

18 guest from out of town.

19 LOU SMIT: Do you know his name?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I did. After the facts.

21 I don't know if I'd recognize it if you even told

22 me.

23 LOU SMIT: Glen Meyer?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Glen Meyer, yes. That's the

25 only time I had ever seen him. At the time I

0062

 1 didn't know who he was. I just thought he was a

 2 guest.

 3 LOU SMIT: But didn't you board your dog over

 4 at the Barnhill's?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: We did. They became attached

 6 to him. We had them keep him once or twice and

 7 they really loved him. They lost their dog and he

 8 died and so they really became attached to

 9 Jacques, and it was kind of a good setup because

10 they took care of him and the kids could play with

11 him. So it was, for us, it was, as parents, it was

12 kind of neat.

13 LOU SMIT: So did the kids go over there

14 quite often?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was not uncommon for

16 them to go over there or Jacques would come over.

17 He'd stay with us sometimes and he became

18 increasingly their dog because they were just so

19 attached to it. And we thought it was kind of nice

20 because they were older. It was nice companionship

21 for them. It was kind of neat for us because the

22 kids could still have a dog and we didn't have to

23 deal with a dog 24 hours a day.

24 So, more and more as time went on, he stayed more

25 at the Barnhills than he did at our house.

0063

 1 LOU SMIT: Were the kids developing a

 2 relationship with this fellow, Glen Meyers, do you

 3 think or has that ever been discussed?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: It's never been discussed.

 5 I don't know. To my knowledge anyway. As I say, I

 6 didn't even know he lived there. They had an

 7 apartment in the basement.

 8 LOU SMIT: Had you yourself ever been over

 9 to the Barnhill's?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. We went over for dinner

11 once, I think. We'd stop in and check on them and

12 take him things to eat sometimes. And I think

13 Betty or Joe was sick for a while and Patsy would

14 take them a thing of food and check on them. They

15 were good neighbors.

16 LOU SMIT: See, John, this is the kind of

17 dialog I want. You learn things and quickly. And I

18 don't have to guess. And this is a way that you

19 can really (INAUDIBLE) a lot of information.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Great.

21 LOU SMIT: And I don't know if he's involved

22 in that. Who knows these things. But you gain an

23 insight into relationships.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

25 LOU SMIT: And it's great.

0064

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

 2 LOU SMIT: You don't have to figure out all

 3 this stuff out here. You're giving us information

 4 that you know directly and that's what we wanted.

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely.

 6 LOU SMIT: Okay. Did you go to the

 7 Barnhills

 8 to pick up a bike?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, Christmas Eve. We'd

10 given JonBenet a bike; we got Patsy a bike. We

11 were giving Burke a bike but not that year.

12 Anyway, there was a bike that we put in their

13 basement, and I gone over after the kids went to

14 bed to get it to put it under the tree. And Joe

15 went down to the garage and went down to get it

16 and brought it up. I offered to go get it and he

17 said no, he'd go get it himself. I don't know

18 where it specifically was, whether it was actually

19 in his garage or his basement.

20 LOU SMIT: You know, I've looked at a lot

21 of pictures in regards to this particular case and

22 I can't remember seeing any bikes. What happened

23 to the bikes?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, they were in the garage,

25 I guess. JonBenet rode her bike for a moment

0065

 1 outside before we went to the White's; just round

 2 the patio. I'm sure that went back in the garage.

 3 Patsy's bike, I don't know, it could have gone in

 4 the garage. I don't remember.

 5 LOU SMIT: Have you seen it since, Patsy's

 6 bike?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. We have it.

 8 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) took it?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: No. We gave, Jonbenet's bike

10 we gave away. Patsy's bike we haven't (INAUDIBLE).

11 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) Now you're looking

12 at the bottom photograph, right under Santa on

13 this?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Larry Barber. The Barbers

15 are usually there every year. I don't see Pinky.

16 She took pictures, she was (INAUDIBLE). The

17 Stines, it's Barbara Fernie's mother. That's

18 Priscilla's father. That's Benny Barnhill, that's

19 Priscilla's mother. I don't know who those two

20 people are. Oh, wait a minute.

21 LOU SMIT: What we're looking at to on the

22 photographs, just for the camera: that's a Santa

23 Claus picture. That's the picture with Mr. Ramsey

24 and John Fernie with the scarf. And he was just

25 naming the people on this bottom photograph and so

0066

 1 we correlate some way with the camera later, we

 2 can do that.

 3 It's just that there's no numbers on these

 4 pictures. They were in that folder and I didn't

 5 have a number associated with them. I pulled them

 6 --

 7 BRYAN MORGAN: What were the two that you

 8 did?

 9 LOU SMIT: Any time you have any questions

10 to

11 him, I have no objection if you interrupt because

12 I know that you want to look into this stuff too.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I think that's Priscilla's

14 -- yeah, one is Priscilla's relatives. The husband

15 of Priscilla's -- I think it's Priscilla's sister,

16 her sister's daughter. Patsy would remember the

17 names probably.

18 LOU SMIT: Were they just visiting at the

19 time?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: They were there for Christmas.

21 They stayed at the Whites. This is just kids doing

22 their gingerbread house decorations.

23 LOU SMIT: Just a quick question while you're

24 on that photograph, and let's show it for the

25 camera here. This shows Patsy and then the

0067

 1 children making gingerbread houses. I notice in

 2 the report that for the past years you had always

 3 bought gingerbread houses. And it seems like they

 4 were always a part of your Christmas festivities?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy had one or two

 6 made one year. She did an open house for the

 7 Historical Society. We were always part of the

 8 historical homes tour where they raise money for

 9 the Boulder Historical Society, and our house --

10 we opened our house for that. And she had this

11 really elaborate gingerbread house made by bob

12 Wallace, who did some handy work for her. And that

13 sat on our kitchen that year. I think we actually

14 (INAUDIBLE) to use.

15 But then we put it in a plastic bag, and it was

16 real elaborate. And so I think it got reused a

17 year or two before it finally gave up. But I think

18 this is the first year she had had the kids

19 decorate gingerbread houses. And so they were

20 there, but I think it was.

21 LOU SMIT: Sometimes I'm going to be very

22 spontaneous. Bob Wallace, what kind of work did he

23 do for you?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I think the first time he

25 worked for us he cleaned all the windows. We had

0068

 1 just finished our addition the third floor.

 2 LOU SMIT: When would that have been?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: '94 maybe; 1994 or '93,'94,

 4 somewhere in that timeframe. He was kind of our

 5 handyman. Patsy had him help her decorate for

 6 Christmas several years. I don't know if he made

 7 the gingerbread house or he had one of his friends

 8 make it. I assumed he had the house made.

 9 He did occasional handyman work, but mostly I

10 think it was decorating around Christmas time.

11 Because Patsy always decorated the house.

12 LOU SMIT: In '96 did he do that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't remember specifically

14 if he did. Probably not. You see, we were leaving

15 town the next morning after Christmas. So I don't

16 recall. We weren't going to have a Christmas

17 party, so I don't think Patsy did a whole lot of

18 decorating. So I don't recall if he did.

19 (INAUDIBLE)

20 LOU SMIT: Did he have a friend that would

21 come with him occasionally?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE)

23 LOU SMIT: And I've never been able to

24 locate

25 that friend's name.

0069

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I think that he was the guy

 2 that

 3 did the gingerbread house. I don't know his name.

 4 I don't think I ever did know his name.

 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (INAUDIBLE). Robert

 6 or Rubio?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Doesn't ring a bell. I don't

 8 know if I ever knew his name. Or if I did, I don't

 9 quite remember.

10 LOU SMIT: There's a chance that Patsy might.

11 (INAUDIBLE). Maybe tomorrow or whenever we get

12 together again, you can kind of learn that. It

13 just seems to me and, again, I've read so much in

14 this case that sometimes I'm full of information.

15 But it seems to me like I don't know what his

16 sexual proclivity was. But it seemed to me like he

17 was --

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, they were both gay.

19 LOU SMIT: That's what I was trying to get

20 at.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

22 LOU SMIT: And that's why I was wondering

23 if he had a gay friend.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: My impression was that they

25 were both gay.

0070

 1 LOU SMIT: Would he give, this fellow, Bob

 2 Wallace, give Patsy advice at certain advice at

 3 certain times, or did they did discuss things? Do

 4 you know that?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).

 6 LOU SMIT: Do you know if he had a key to

 7 the house?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible. I don't know

 9 if he did. I doubt he did. I don't think that he

10 did. But Patsy, again, would know better than I

11 would.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you know where he came from?

13 I mean, how did she meet this guy?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: That's a good question. I don't

15 recall. I think he was from Denver. I don't know

16 how she ran across him.

17 LOU SMIT: Again, this is the kind of

18 question that I like to sit down and ask you. I'm

19 just a real brief thing. Sometimes we don't know

20 the answer, but sometimes the answers come pretty

21 flowing. And it does jiggle the thought process

22 about it and start thinking. Again, pointing

23 fingers at somebody, I don't do that. But it's

24 nice to have a lead.

25 And this is how you develop the lead; the thing

0071

 1 has to be developed. And whether or not it's the

 2 right guy or not (INAUDIBLE).

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I know.

 4 LOU SMIT: Do you have anything on that,

 5 Mike? Again, Mike, if I'm going over things that

 6 you want to interject at all. Please do, because I

 7 know you have been just reading (INAUDIBLE)

 8 there than I am. So anyway I touched on that just

 9 because his name did come up.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

11 MIKE KANE: Would it be possible (INAUDIBLE)

12 real quickly.

13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: One more thing you

14 might want to talk about -- David, why don't you

15 ask the question because you're aware of this

16 (INAUDIBLE). Cause he work on the windows. Was

17 that your point?

18 DAVID WILLIAMS: Well, yes. My point was: he

19 cleaned all the windows back in '93, '94. There

20 were screens on them at that time. See that's

21 where we (INAUDIBLE) the screens were already off.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: We took the screens off when we

23 painted the house and he would have cleaned the

24 windows after the paint was done.

25 LOU SMIT: When was the painting done?

0072

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it was finished just before

 2 that Boulder Home Tour, the Historic Home Tour,

 3 which I think was in '94. And the painting went on

 4 for years. Dominic thought the painter was -- well

 5 she thought he was --

 6 LOU SMIT: And who was the painter?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Jay Pedopiece. The reason

 8 I remember is, when it was over with, he went into

 9 the house just to finish up some last little

10 touches. We were going to be out of town. Patsy

11 told him please close the windows when you leave.

12 And he left the windows open in my bedroom and

13 bathroom. The wind blew hard, blew open the

14 shutters which turned on the faucet and flooded

15 the whole house. About two weeks before this home

16 tour. (INAUDIBLE) coming out the garage doors and

17 I said, (What in the world is that.̃ (INAUDIBLE).

18 So Patsy went crazy trying to put that back

19 together in two weeks.

20 BRYAN MORGAN: Well take a break. It's about

21 a quarter till eleven.

22 (BREAK TAKEN)

23 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) how JonBenet was exposed

24 during that particular time of her exposure?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: The biggest exposure which, say

0073

 1 in retrospect, would be how stupid could we have

 2 been. But when she was in a children's parade in

 3 Boulder, I think it was December 6th or early

 4 December. And the kids had done it before.

 5 Actually they did it the year before as well. It's

 6 a neat children's parade. All the kids, and kids

 7 love to be in parades, and it just seemed like a

 8 fun thing for the kids to do. There's people

 9 lining the streets up and down.

10 LOU SMIT: Were you there for that?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: We were not; we were out of

12 town. And Patsy's mother was there taking care of

13 the kids, and they had prearranged for JonBenet to

14 go with Pam Archuleta who was, I think at the

15 time, (INAUDIBLE) United Way. So she drove her

16 little red convertible and JonBenet and that other

17 little girl sat up on the back.

18 LOU SMIT: Who was the other girl?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Again, Patsy would know. I don't

20 know her name. But she was one of the little

21 pageant girls from Denver, I think. A dark haired

22 girl. I have a picture of that.

23 LOU SMIT: Okay.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Which I can get for you.

25 LOU SMIT: I think I'd like a copy of that,

0074

 1 if I could.

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. And the car might have

 3 had -- I think Patsy would normally put her name

 4 on the side of the car with a little magnetic-like

 5 pageant clothing. But basically I think it was

 6 like a red Christmassy velvet dress.

 7 LOU SMIT: And was that right downtown? Where

 8 was that at exactly?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it goes down, what is it

10 Walnut, I think. It goes down to Walnut and then

11 it kinds lines around and comes back. It's in the

12 early evening.

13 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) I've got my copy so,

14 like I said --

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, what concerned me

16 afterwards as we started looking into who could

17 have possibly done this is a lot of, as I said

18 earlier, there's a lot of good people and there's

19 a lot freaks out there, and we were just kind of

20 ignorant of that. And she was certainly exposed,

21 occasionally exposed to the freaks.

22 LOU SMIT: And I'm sure that still goes on

23 today. (INAUDIBLE) so you never know (INAUDIBLE).

24 Okay. Let's go back then to Christmas Eve. And you

25 did mention then -- Oh, I want to ask one more

0075

 1 thing.

 2 Pasta Jay's. You went there after what, after

 3 church?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: After church.

 5 LOU SMIT: And who went there?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy and I and Burke and

 7 JonBenet.

 8 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now you know Pasta Jay real

 9 well?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

11 LOU SMIT: Because you're business partners

12 with him?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

14 LOU SMIT: Okay. A thought that crossed my

15 mind, and I don't know if -- you used to go there

16 quite a bit?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Lots, yeah.

18 LOU SMIT: Okay. How often would you say you

19 went there?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I'd go there at least twice

21 a week, probably.

22 LOU SMIT: And how often would your family go?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, at least once a week. At least.

24 LOU SMIT: Just as an investigative thought, did

25 Pasta Jay have anybody working for him that may

0076

 1 trigger something in your mind? I know he has a

 2 lot of people working for him.

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

 4 LOU SMIT: And he would be the one probably

 5 to answer that.

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I didn't really have any

 7 involvement in the day-to-day business. So I only

 8 knew the people that were out in front: the

 9 waitresses and so forth.

10 LOU SMIT: You see, David, my thought process

11 is maybe they met some kook cook or something or

12 somebody that may have quite shortly after or

13 exhibited a strange behavior. I don't know. I

14 think some place where JonBenet would have been

15 out with her family, sort of.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: She was there all the time.

17 And really, she grew up at Pasta Jay's.

18 (INAUDIBLE). The waitresses kind of adopted her as

19 sort of a surrogate child.

20 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) if Pasta Jay or anyone

21 else that we would like to talk to if we have

22 difficulties, please let us know.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.

24 LOU SMIT: We can do everything we can to

25 get anyone you want over. If we have any degree or

0077

 1 sort of influence or friendship to talk to.

 2 Because a lot of times just going there,

 3 discussing the thing. Because I would like to talk

 4 to Pasta Jay. And we can do anything to facilitate

 5 that. I can do it, John can do it, we will do it.

 6 You see, this is one thing that's going to come up

 7 in this investigation too, is that somehow John

 8 Ramsey or someone else influences other people not

 9 to talk to the police. And what's your opinion on

10 that?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know, we certainly

12 influenced enough talking to the media. I don't

13 know if we ever, I have never, I just don't

14 recollect. I don't think I've ever said, (Don't

15 talk to the police.̃

16 LOU SMIT: I will absolutely guarantee that

17 we have not, at all, and I know the people I'm

18 working with. I know the investigators and

19 lawyers, I've known them for 20 years, and I'll

20 guarantee that we had discouraged no one. I do

21 believe there are a lot of people who consider

22 themselves of John Ramsey who then put off

23 (INAUDIBLE) by the Boulder Police Department

24 almost as we have and I'm quite sure, it would be

25 my guess, that some may have been less than of

0078

 1 forthcoming.

 2 I have asked Peter Hofstrom for months if he would

 3 give me a list of people that you all even talked

 4 to. That you, for some reason, have been unable

 5 to, if there was anything we can do with any of

 6 those, we would. And I don't understand this.

 7 Okay. Because that was one of the concerns with

 8 the grand jury is that people won't talk so. I'm

 9 sure that was a concern of Mike here. How do you

10 get people to speak to you, to talk to you. You

11 just can't go down there an say we want to talk to

12 you and --

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we can. Because,

14 as I said, we are coming into this as this is

15 finally an objective investigation led by people

16 who have a lot of experience in homicides. And if

17 we could help, we will. I think Bryan said all

18 right.

19 LOU SMIT: Okay. I've covered those people.

20 (INAUDIBLE)?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Just to backup one step with

22 Pasta Jay. The only one thing I noticed that night

23 that, when we were (INAUDIBLE) there was this very

24 striking couple there with their daughter who just

25 stood out in my mind. And I noticed her in church

0079

 1 and he had very dark hair and she was very

 2 attractive. And I had never seen them in church.

 3 And they look kind of like they were from East.

 4 They were well cared for. They were dressed up.

 5 And they were in Pasta Jay's.

 6 LOU SMIT: Also.

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Also. And they kind of sat

 8 near us in the same room and then they moved to a

 9 table in the other room. And I thought, (Hmmmm.̃

10 LOU SMIT: Is this the first time you thought

11 of that?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I thought about it before.

13 What was that, who was it? I mean it was kind of

14 a, (Oh, I saw those people in church and it's a

15 coincidence that they are in Pasta Jay's.̃ And

16 later I thought, who were those people.

17 LOU SMIT: Were they in a farther row or did

18 anybody know them? Would that be in a signed

19 register?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: No. (INAUDIBLE) it's just

21 a piece of data.

22 LOU SMIT: And you ever seen them since?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

24 LOU SMIT: So then Christmas Eve was at Pasta

25 Jay's and then what happened? Just kind of take

0080

 1 (INAUDIBLE)?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, yeah. I remember dropping

 3 Patsy off; I couldn't find a parking place right

 4 away. So I parked and came around and they already

 5 had a table in the front room. I came in, we had

 6 dinner, the kids colored.

 7 I think we drove up to -- after we left there I

 8 think we drove to the Star, might have driven a

 9 little bit to look at the lights. JonBenet was

10 miffed because we wouldn't let her walk up to the

11 star because she had on her church dress and

12 (INAUDIBLE) can't walk up there.

13 LOU SMIT: Why did she have on her church

14 dress (INAUDIBLE)?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: It was pretty good. She looked

16 beautiful in church. It was a purple dress. And

17 they wanted to get out of the car, I guess. After

18 we looked at everything, we turned around and came

19 home. The kids went to bed.

20 LOU SMIT: At different times. Sometimes

21 there are different times.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't remember exactly.

23 But it was dark, I remember that. Because the

24 lights were on and I remember the starlight. So if

25 we went to five o'clock church, that would have

0081

 1 been over at six or so. Then we went to dinner and

 2 (INAUDIBLE) somewhere around there.

 3 I don't specifically remember the kids going to

 4 bed, but I'm sure they went to bed fairly early

 5 because they wanted to get up at the crack of

 6 dawn. You know, the normal routine was (INAUDIBLE)

 7 was as soon as we thought the kids were asleep we

 8 got Christmas organized.

 9 LOU SMIT: And how would you do that? What

10 would you do to organize Christmas?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we'd get up, haul the

12 presents and put them under the tree. And a lot of

13 the things were not wrapped so the kids had the

14 surprise when they came down. And we put those out

15 and we got the bike.

16 LOU SMIT: Where would you keep these bikes?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: They were usually in the basement.

18 That was Patsy's department. But I think she kept

19 them in that cellar room. We usually kept all of

20 Christmas stuff in there. Our Christmas trees and

21 lights and that stuff, the trim.

22 LOU SMIT: So you think that somebody would

23 have gone down to get those? Did you go down

24 there?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember specifically.

0082

 1 I mean --

 2 LOU SMIT: Kind of think about that because

 3 that's kind of important. Who was in the basement

 4 close to the time of Christmas.

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well certainly we both would

 6 have been because Patsy did most of her wrapping

 7 down there. And that's where all the present stuff

 8 was stored. So in the process of getting ready for

 9 Christmas that would certainly have been down

10 there and been in there.

11 The only thing I remember is going over to Joe's

12 and getting the bike out of his garage. And then

13 after Patsy went upstairs, I had her bike in our

14 garage and I got that out and put it by the tree.

15 And then I went upstairs.

16 LOU SMIT: So both bikes then were at the

17 tree. You just took the one from Joe Barnhill and

18 put it by the tree?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: And brought Patsy's in from

20 the garage.

21 LOU SMIT: This may not be exactly the

22 time to interject, but did you get a painting for

23 Christmas?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, that's right.

25 LOU SMIT: Tell me about that.

0083

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: It was a painting of some

 2 boats at anchor that Patsy had seen in, I think, a

 3 local art store. It was done by a local Boulder

 4 artist. And she had got me that for Christmas

 5 which were going to take it up to our cottage up

 6 in Michigan. It was behind the couch, I think.

 7 LOU SMIT: Yeah. I was just wondering

 8 where that would have been kept that evening.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. That's where it was

10 the next morning. I don't know how long it had

11 been there.

12 LOU SMIT: But it's small enough to hide

13 behind the couch (INAUDIBLE)?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: It could have been behind --

15 probably about that high and not quite as wide as

16 that wall. So it was fairly large. And I recall

17 that's where she had it; behind the couch. And

18 then she got that out, that was when Christmas was

19 all over.

20 LOU SMIT: It was wrapped?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. The picture was wrapped.

22 LOU SMIT: I was just wondering, like when you

23 brought the bikes back in and Patsy was already in

24 bed and then --

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

0084

 1 LOU SMIT: -- I don't know if you would

 2 have

 3 seen something like that?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't see it. So I knew

 5 it must have been there by the couch. That's my

 6 assumption.

 7 LOU SMIT: So you go to bed and you know

 8 the routine? (INAUDIBLE).

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. The kids, of course,

10 were up early. I remember both of them running up

11 to our bed early in the morning to get us up to go

12 downstairs.

13 LOU SMIT: Do you remember what time?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I'd be guessing. It could

15 have been 5:30, it could have been 6:30. It was

16 certainly early. Probably before daylight. I don't

17 remember exactly, but they were always -- Burke

18 came in one time at midnight to get us up one

19 Christmas, it was time to get up and open

20 presents. I looked at the clock, it was midnight.

21 LOU SMIT: That was not this Christmas?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think it was, if I

23 recall. And then I think I had them stay in the

24 bedroom until I went downstairs and turned on the

25 Christmas lights. It's always been kind of fun to

0085

 1 make them wait a little bit.

 2 LOU SMIT: Real quickly, where did JonBenet

 3 sleep that previous night? And where did Burke

 4 sleep on Christmas eve?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think they slept in

 6 their own bedrooms. I don't specifically remember

 7 that. But. Anyway, they come down and we had

 8 Christmas and we usually have a breakfast, which

 9 we did I think that day afterwards.

10 LOU SMIT: What did you have for breakfast?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: It might have been pancakes.

12 Which is usually what we would eat. We would have

13 a special breakfast, but I don't remember exactly.

14 But we usually had a big breakfast.

15 LOU SMIT: Anything else that goes along

16 with the pancakes, or anything that you can think

17 of? I know I'm trying to get specific.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't remember. I mean,

19 it probably been like bacon and probably hash and

20 that kind of things. But I don't remember for

21 sure. But that's typically what we would have had

22 for breakfast. Coffee, juice, orange juice. But

23 that took up most of the morning, I guess. By the

24 time we finished --

25 LOU SMIT: How were you dressed when you

0086

 1 were opening presents?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: The kids, JonBenet had on a

 3 little pink, like a long underwear bottoms and

 4 top. Burke, I don't remember, probably shirt

 5 pajamas. They didn't have time to get dressed.

 6 Probably Patsy and I had on pajamas and robe which

 7 we wore --

 8 LOU SMIT: So real casually dressed?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

10 LOU SMIT: Not like now or?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I'm sure we had on our

12 pajamas and robes.

13 LOU SMIT: Do you remember kind of what

14 the kids got? What she got?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well JonBenet got a bike.

16 I think Burke got a bike too. It seems like we had

17 three bikes there. JonBenet, I think she got a

18 little doll that was one of these look-a-like

19 dolls that was supposed to look like her. I

20 remember her looking at it and saying, this

21 doesn't look like me.

22 LOU SMIT: Was that made specially in

23 a certain spot?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Supposedly, I guess. Yeah.

25 That's a good question. Patsy would know. She got

0087

 1 it. It's one of these -- it's supposed to be a

 2 doll that's made to look like the child.

 3 LOU SMIT: So it's a specially made item

 4 then from a certain kind of store.

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I believe so, yeah. Patsy,

 6 I'm sure, would know specifically where it came

 7 from, the details on that. But I seemed to

 8 remember her holding it up saying this doesn't

 9 look like me. And she didn't.

10 LOU SMIT: And she held it up for you?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: She did.

12 LOU SMIT: And can you think of anything else?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: They always get so much stuff. I

14 guess I don't remember. It's always kind of a

15 little bit overloaded with so many things. I

16 remember she did a little (INAUDIBLE) that night

17 and a little jewelry maker wrapped up in little

18 strips of paper and little beads. I remember

19 specifically playing that with her that evening,

20 Christmas day evening.

21 LOU SMIT: Now let's talk about Christmas day

22 a little bit more. Now, you were going to be

23 leaving for Charlevoix.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

25 LOU SMIT: And tell us a little bit about

0088

 1 the arrangements you were making then?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the plan was to leave

 3 the morning of the 26th. I had an airplane at the

 4 time that was on charter through a charter company

 5 run by Mike Archuleta, who is also a friend;

 6 became a friend. Mike was going to fly us that

 7 morning of the 26th from Jeffco to Minneapolis. We

 8 were going to get into Minneapolis before 11 and

 9 my older kids were going to arrive from Atlanta.

10 From Atlanta to Minneapolis we were going to pick

11 them up and then go on to Charlevoix.

12 And we did it that way because Charlevoix was a

13 difficult place to get to with airlines. And we

14 were flying from Jeffco to Charlevoix, you fly

15 literally almost fly over Minneapolis. So that

16 would be real easy for us to stop in Minneapolis

17 and pick them up. And they had really inexpensive

18 tickets to get there on the airlines. So that was

19 the plan.

20 They we were going to stay there for I think it

21 was till Friday. I forget what day the 26th was.

22 (INAUDIBLE) but we were going to stay for a couple

23 days and come back to Boulder around Friday. Then

24 I think the next morning on Saturday, we were

25 going to leave for this Big Red Boat trip with

0089

 1 just JonBenet, Burke and Patsy and me. And that

 2 was a package deal. We had tickets on TWA and that

 3 was all kind of pretty pre-laid out for us.

 4 So that was the plan. I had gone out to the

 5 airport Christmas day to kind of tinker with

 6 airplane and load some presents and kind of get it

 7 pre-loaded because we're going to leave early in

 8 the morning. We had to be there, I wanted to be

 9 there when the kids arrive in Minneapolis.

10 LOU SMIT: What kinds of presents did you

11 bring there (INAUDIBLE)?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we were going to have

13 a kind of second Christmas up in Charlevoix for

14 the big kids. And so we had their presents. We had

15 a few little extra presents for Burke and JonBenet

16 so they wouldn't feel left out.

17 So I guess I kind of fussed around that for a few

18 hours and then I came home.

19 LOU SMIT: Where were those presents kept?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well there were some presents

21 in a little, what we call, the butler's kitchen,

22 but it was a lower level kitchen. There were some

23 presents some presents down there. In fact, I

24 think I wrapped some Christmas day to take to the

25 airplane to get ready for the next day. I think

0090

 1 those were there.

 2 LOU SMIT: So when you wrapped them, the

 3 items, you wrapped them, where would you get the

 4 wrapping paper and all the things?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I could have either

 6 gotten it from there or down in the basement.

 7 Patsy had by the (INAUDIBLE) a bunch of wrapping

 8 paper and stuff, and I think there was some there

 9 in the butler's kitchen area as well. I might have

10 even went downstairs to get the paper and stuff. I

11 don't remember. That's where a lot of them would

12 have been.

13 LOU SMIT: I think what I'm trying to get

14 at is, did you go into the wine cellar at that

15 time in order to get any of these items?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. It wouldn't

17 have been out of the question or impossible.

18 LOU SMIT: Try to think about that a little

19 bit. It's just one of those things that we're

20 trying to determine who all would have gone in

21 there into that room at a specific time. That's

22 whey we have to find that out. That's why

23 specifically if you can think about it. I know to

24 sequence your memory is kind of hard. But it's one

25 of those things that I figure you can think about

0091

 1 a little bit.

 2 Just to back up just a little bit. After the

 3 children opened their gifts, do you know what they

 4 did that day, your children?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well they played around the

 6 house. There were some kids in and out, I think.

 7 Because I wasn't there for several hours.

 8 LOU SMIT: And where were these kids from?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Only, I think based -- well

10 I'm pretty sure I saw Evan and Kile, I forget

11 their last name.

12 LOU SMIT: Coby?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Coby. They were there. I don't

14 remember specifically knowing that. But I think

15 Patsy, I heard her saying neighbors and girls from

16 up the street.

17 LOU SMIT: Do you know their names?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. I don't.

19 LOU SMIT: We were trying to determine who

20 all JonBenet or Burke had had any contact. And

21 later on we'll kind of get into those reasons. But

22 right now we have to find out any contact with the

23 children.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I know. Well, there were

25 a number of kids there that day. Our house was

0092

 1 always kind of, kids were in and out of there all

 2 the time and it was usually the Coby boys. There

 3 was a family that lived not immediately next door,

 4 but the house over, that had moved in recently

 5 after the Whites had left the house. I didn't know

 6 them. I think there were a couple of girls in the

 7 house that had come down to play.

 8 LOU SMIT: How about the children like to

 9 the south of you?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Let's see, south. That's --

11 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE).

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It's possible. But I don't

13 remember seeing them there. But they were there

14 occasionally. The boy, the son, this is on the

15 house next to us, towards the baseline. Their son,

16 who seemed like a very nice kid, was always

17 attentive to JonBenet in a nice way; a brotherly

18 way, I thought.

19 LOU SMIT: Do you know his name?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't.

21 LOU SMIT: Is it Luke?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Luke? That rings a bell, yeah.

23 That's right.

24 LOU SMIT: Do you know of anybody from the

25 family who always lived next door to the north?

0093

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Not a lot. They had a child and

 2 they were divorced after that. He had children

 3 from another marriage; two boys, I think. All nice

 4 kids.

 5 LOU SMIT: And were they around them that day?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember for sure. Patsy

 7 probably would remember that.

 8 LOU SMIT: See, we're trying to determine

 9 the gap of anybody who could have contact, and

10 usually the neighbors and people close and we

11 would just like to have their names.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Again, Patsy would have more

13 information on that.

14 LOU SMIT: Or maybe Burke would have some

15 information on that, I'm not sure. (INAUDIBLE).

16 JOHN RAMSEY: There was a little girl, I

17 think, that lived diagonally across the street

18 that --

19 LOU SMIT: Which way was that?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: This would have been south

21 and east, next to the Barnhills, south of the

22 Barnhills.

23 LOU SMIT: Okay.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was a single mother

25 that rented that house. And I think she had a

0094

 1 daughter or a son, was that a son. Maybe it was a

 2 son. I don't remember. It might have been a boy.

 3 They moved. They would come over occasionally but

 4 not often.

 5 LOU SMIT: What I'm going to do, I'm going

 6 to show you a small diagram. I might have a bigger

 7 diagram which I'm going to bring in after a while

 8 when we get into the neighbors.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.

10 LOU SMIT: This is a small diagram that we

11 have and it just kind of shows the relationship of

12 houses in the area. It's not to scale or anything.

13 We'd like to just look at it. This is your home,

14 755, and across the street is the Barnhills. And

15 which address were you talking about about the

16 other little girl.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have been this one,

18 738.

19 LOU SMIT: 738?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I think it was a boy.

21 They had a child. She had a child. I think it was

22 a little boy. But that's the house I was talking

23 about.

24 LOU SMIT: Now you say he may have come over?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't know that he did

0095

 1 that day. But I said he's come over once in a

 2 while.

 3 LOU SMIT: Okay, we're still talking

 4 Christmas day. And what time do you think you left

 5 for the airport?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was after breakfast. You

 7 know, 11, 12, probably somewhere there. I spent

 8 some time, it was in the Steven's Aviation hangar.

 9 There were a couple of mechanics there and running

10 boys. But the place was pretty well closed down.

11 But I spent some time cleaning it, having it

12 ready.

13 LOU SMIT: Anybody that you talked to or anything?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I spoke to one of the line guys.

15 LOU SMIT: You know his name?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. He was just one of the

17 guys that was there on Christmas day. But the

18 airplane was in their hangar, in the maintenance

19 hangar. Which is not normally where it's kept. But

20 it was there that day. And I just puttered around

21 for a few hours actually. Probably got home about

22 threeish, probably.

23 LOU SMIT: Did you have a run-in with somebody

24 at the airport over the parking of the plane, that

25 I remember reading someplace; some guy that you

0096

 1 had a run-in with at the airport? Could you just

 2 think of that for a little bit?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) I don't remember

 4 that now.

 5 LOU SMIT: I remember something (INAUDIBLE).

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't specifically remember

 7 anything like that.

 8 LOU SMIT: So got home at about three?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

10 LOU SMIT: Now when you walk in right at

11 about at that time, what do you remember when you

12 come into the house? What do you remember in

13 regards to the children and in regards to Patsy?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: It seems like I remember there

15 were some kids around and kids were playing. We

16 were going to get ready to go to the Whites.

17 LOU SMIT: And the other kids?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember that, I think, yeah.

19 It seems like there were some kids around. Kids

20 were hanging around the house.

21 LOU SMIT: And you said you were getting ready

22 to go to the Whites?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

24 LOU SMIT: Now you'd been up all day and then

25 towards noon. Now did anybody have anything to eat

0097

 1 prior to going to the Whites?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think I did have any

 3 lunch. It would have been normal for the kids to

 4 have some lunch. But, again, Patsy would know

 5 that.

 6 LOU SMIT: How about before you went to Whites

 7 later that day?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Not to my knowledge. Then again,

 9 they're always eating. But we didn't specifically

10 sit down and have any kind of meal or a sandwich

11 or anything before leaving.

12 LOU SMIT: You don't remember that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

14 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now, I'm sure you're getting

15 ready to go and how did that normally work? Did

16 you get ready to go out during that particular

17 night specifically, if you can remember just how

18 people had gotten ready and maybe how they were

19 dressed? You might remember how you were dressed.

20 But (INAUDIBLE)?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well usually Patsy gets the

22 kids ready before we go out. I get ready and it's

23 always an effort to get the kids ready because

24 they wanted to get dressed up. I think it was she

25 got them dressed up to go over for Christmas

0098

 1 dinner. And I don't remember specifically that

 2 process, but that's what we normally or usually

 3 do.

 4 LOU SMIT: Do you normally take a shower

 5 when you're (INAUDIBLE)?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I always take a shower in

 7 the morning when I get up. (INAUDIBLE) I feel like

 8 a needed a shower, I'll take one in the afternoon.

 9 I don't remember taking a shower. Could be, but I

10 remember doing that. We were just going to go have

11 a nice family Christmas dinner.

12 LOU SMIT: Now, when you go up to the Whites,

13 what time do you think it was that you left your

14 house?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it seemed like it was

16 4:30, 5:00, somewhere in that range, as I recall.

17 It was an early dinner. The kids wanted to play

18 together.

19 LOU SMIT: And when you say (together̃, who

20 is that?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: With Fleet, Junior, Daphne White.

22 And Fleet and Burke were buddies, and Daphne and

23 JonBenet were buddies. That was a nice setup.

24 LOU SMIT: Now later on the evening, I know

25 you dropped some presents off at different places.

0099

 1 And I want to go back to the presents a little bit

 2 again. Someone would have had to load them into

 3 the car. Do your remember anything about that?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't. I don't remember

 5 loading anything.

 6 LOU SMIT: Okay. Which car did you take?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: We took Patsy's white Jaguar.

 8 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now I noticed you had another

 9 vehicle in the garage. What was that?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: It should have been a black

11 Grand Cherokee.

12 LOU SMIT: And whose was that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: That was mine.

14 LOU SMIT: Did you normally use that for work?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I drove it -- unless the weather

16 was bad, and then we swapped.

17 LOU SMIT: Did you drive it to the airport

18 that day?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I sure did. Yeah. I did.

20 LOU SMIT: Okay. You're at the White's house.

21 Remember what you did there, if you can.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we came in. They had a

23 lot

24 of their extended family there, and their parents,

25 I think, Priscilla's parents were there. Her

0100

 1 sister and brother-in-law. Her sister's daughter

 2 and her husband. I think there was a third sister

 3 there with a boyfriend. A collection.

 4 They had hors d'oeuvres and they made a special

 5 thing about cracked crab, that's some kind of

 6 family tradition that they always had cracked crab

 7 at their Christmas day dinner as an appetizer.

 8 They had that. They had some little gifts for us.

 9 They had given me some napkins for my boat that

10 had the boat name on them. I think that's where

11 JonBenet got that thing that makes the beads.

12 Because we played with that that evening on the

13 floor. I remember that. Pete and I were making

14 these little beads. He was doing it with Daphne

15 and I was doing it with JonBenet.

16 Priscilla gave the kids that at that party. But

17 then they had a typical, you know, in the kitchen

18 cooking the dinner, snacking on hors d'oeuvres

19 kind of evening. And then they had dinner. They

20 had the table set up in the dining room and they

21 had two tables down in the living room and

22 everybody kind of sat down to eat.

23 LOU SMIT: I want you to really specifically

24 to think on what you ate and how things were laid

25 out there.

0101

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).

 2 LOU SMIT: Very much so. I would like to

 3 just know, perhaps, what you ate or whether the

 4 children ate or if it was different or how things

 5 were set up.

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, all I can specifically

 7 remember was the cracked crab. I think they had a

 8 turkey dinner. But I think she made, she always

 9 makes these little hot dogs with barbecue sauce

10 that the kids love. I remember her specifically,

11 Priscilla coming over this big plate of cracked

12 plate making little plates, and I wanted to save

13 these out for JonBenet and she took them out and

14 put them in the plate.

15 LOU SMIT: What were they?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was the cracked

17 crab.

18 MIKE KANE: What is cracked crab? I'm from

19 the east. I don't know --

20 JOHN RAMSEY: She doesn't take all of it.

21 It's like pieces of crab that are cut up. They're

22 cold.

23 MIKE KANE: They're real crab?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. They're boiled like.

25 They're already broken. They're like just chunks

0102

 1 of, like somebody has already broken up the legs

 2 and I guess it was like king crab that was

 3 partially open.

 4 MIKE KANE: Okay.

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: But she specifically, I

 6 just remember her making little plates going down

 7 the line. Which, in retrospect, seems a little

 8 strange.

 9 LOU SMIT: Did JonBenet like that?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember if she ate it,

11 but, yeah, she would have liked it.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you remember any fruit like

13 apples, oranges or anything like tat?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not specifically. I know we've

15 been asked indirectly a lot about pineapple

16 rounds.

17 LOU SMIT: I was going to get around to that.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It wouldn't have been

19 unusual. That would have certainly fit in with the

20 dinner, but I don't specifically remember being

21 there. But I can tell you there was some finger

22 foods. There were probably carrots and celery and

23 stuff like that.

24 LOU SMIT: Okay.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: They usually had peanuts around.

0103

 1 I don't remember specifically having peanuts, but

 2 that would have been very normal.

 3 LOU SMIT: Do you know what Burke was

 4 doing at that time?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I think the kids were just

 6 kind off playing. I think they were upstairs.

 7 Everybody just disappeared upstairs. (INAUDIBLE).

 8 After dinner I think that's when we sat down and

 9 played with the little beads, the bead machine.

10 They were pretty much playing with their toys.

11 LOU SMIT: What time did you get started

12 dinner and what time did it end? I mean that's

13 hard to say? Was it an early dinner?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I'd guess; it purely a guess,

15 but it seemed like it was sevenish probably that

16 we sat down to eat. Cause we were there for a

17 little while before we were actually ate. Because

18 they were preparing the dinner and we had a glass

19 of wine and the hors d'oeuvres. So maybe probably

20 sevenish, 7:30 in the evening we sat down to eat.

21 LOU SMIT: You say you had a glass of wine.

22 Is that normal for you when you went there? I

23 don't mean (INAUDIBLE) alcohol or anything like

24 that.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I'd have of wine and then

0104

 1 dinner, two maybe. I usually don't drink beer

 2 unless it's just to be sociable. But wine

 3 occasionally.

 4 LOU SMIT: And how much would you say you

 5 had that night?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't remember, but

 7 certainly not more than two glasses, and only if

 8 like the glass is not very full. I like to sip on

 9 it. I might have two glasses.

10 LOU SMIT: How about Patsy?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: She wasn't -- she might have

12 had a glass served to her. Whether she drank any

13 at all of it. It would have been unusual for her

14 to drink much alcohol.

15 LOU SMIT: Why?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: She just got real focused

17 on her health, frankly. You know, dying from

18 cancer. And she wasn't into wine to start with.

19 She never drank much.

20 LOU SMIT: Anybody else at the party drank

21 wine or more (INAUDIBLE)?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I remember. It was

23 just a nice quiet family party.

24 LOU SMIT: What time then did you leave the

25 White's party?

0105

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we left at about between

 2 8:30 and 9:00. Because I remember trying to get

 3 Burke into bed at a reasonable hour when we went

 4 home.

 5 LOU SMIT: How far is the Whites from where

 6 you live? I know that there is that little time

 7 period in there?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we went from the Whites

 9 to the Walkers to drop off a gift.

10 LOU SMIT: Were they labeled in this diagram?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. (INAUDIBLE).

12 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) would the drive have

13 been from the Whites there?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, six minutes, five minutes.

15 It's not really far.

16 LOU SMIT: Okay.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably even less. I think

18 the kids and I stayed in the car and Patsy went

19 out to the door. It didn't take very long. Ten

20 minutes maybe.

21 LOU SMIT: Now this may not seem important

22 or anything, the dynamics of things back at that

23 time. You leave the Whites, the children are going

24 to get in the car. Is JonBenet walking with

25 anybody? I mean, describe like how they get in and

0106

 1 where they go or whatever?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I don't remember

 3 specifically getting in. But I know she was, I

 4 mean, it's always a challenge to get them rounded

 5 up and with all her toys and get them detached

 6 from what they're doing and haul them away.

 7 Getting thing out to the car and off we went.

 8 LOU SMIT: Any particular seat arrangement?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well JonBenet sat behind me,

10 as the driver. Burke sat to her on the other side

11 of the backseat. Patsy was in the passenger seat

12 in the front.

13 LOU SMIT: Do you remember how JonBenet was

14 dressed?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: She had on a little top with a

16 silver star on it and a black pair of pants. I

17 don't remember if she had color -- she probably

18 did. I don't remember what color it was.

19 LOU SMIT: How about Patsy? How was she

20 dressed?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: You know I don't remember other

22 than I've looked at pictures of their party and

23 that's my memory. But I couldn't have told you

24 without looking at the pictures.

25 LOU SMIT: And what did the pictures show?

0107

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I think in the pictures she

 2 had

 3 like a red Christmas sweater on.

 4 LOU SMIT: These pictures that you have of

 5 the party, are these pictures that the police got

 6 or were these extra pictures?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I think they are the ones

 8 that the police got. I think they were taken at

 9 the White's. I don't think we took any pictures.

10 LOU SMIT: Okay. Did anybody take any pictures

11 that you know that were at the party?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not that I remember.

13 LOU SMIT: Okay. So you drive to the Walkers,

14 that's the first one. And you were driving, do you

15 remember what the road or weather conditions were

16 like that night?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I believe there was no weather

18 because I would've have been concerned because I

19 knew we were flying out the next morning. So I

20 know I wasn't aware of any weather. It wasn't

21 snowing. It was dry. I don't think the drive was

22 bad.

23 LOU SMIT: Did you file a flight plan?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Mike would have done it, yeah.

25 LOU SMIT: did you talk about weather or

0108

 1 anything?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I always watch the weather

 3 channels for the day before we go anywhere just to

 4 get a feel for the flow of things. I don't

 5 remember that I was particularly concerned about

 6 the weather.

 7 LOU SMIT: So where did you pull into then

 8 at the Walkers?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I pulled into the

10 driveway. And it seems like that when Patsy, as I

11 recall, she went in and she stayed a little while

12 like five minutes.

13 LOU SMIT: And she went in to do something?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Just to give the Walkers their

15 gifts.

16 LOU SMIT: Do you know what that gift was?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't at the time. I think

18 it was perfume or something like that. I remember

19 her saying, but I didn't at the time. I thought it

20 was a food (INAUDIBLE) or something like that. And

21 she came back out and we went to the Stines and

22 she had a gift for them.

23 LOU SMIT: Now did you and Burke and JonBenet

24 stay in the car, do you remember?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember.

0109

 1 LOU SMIT: You stayed in the car at the Walkers?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, the Walkers, yeah. I think we

 3 all three stayed in the car.

 4 LOU SMIT: And then you go to the Stines?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 6 LOU SMIT: How far a drive is the Stines?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Two minutes, three minutes.

 8 Pulled up out the front of their house. Patsy

 9 certainly went in, I don't think I did. I don't

10 remember if Burke did or not. I don't think

11 JonBenet did. But I don't remember for sure.

12 It wouldn't have been unusual for Burke to go in

13 because that was his buddy, Doug.

14 LOU SMIT: Did you have a gift for Doug?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I know Patsy

16 probably, but I don't recall. And then we debated,

17 we had a gift for the Fernies and we debated

18 whether we should go over there. But that's

19 probably 15 minutes away and we wanted to get home

20 and to bed. And we didn't know what time we would

21 get back. So we left the Stines and drove home.

22 LOU SMIT: So your concern then was mainly you

23 didn't want to spend that extra time (INAUDIBLE).

24 Why?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was 15 minutes over

0110

 1 there and both the kids might want to go in and it

 2 would have been half an hour, 45 minutes before we

 3 went home. And we had to get up early next

 4 morning. They were tired. They had been up all

 5 day. So we said, well, we'd do that when we got

 6 back.

 7 LOU SMIT: So when you leave the Steins,

 8 Patsy returns or whatever and that's just a short

 9 distance to your house, I imagine. What? Just a

10 couple of minutes? And was Burke asleep at this

11 time (INAUDIBLE)?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: JonBenet, when we pulled into

13 the drive, she was sound asleep because I remember

14 getting her out of the car and she was just out.

15 LOU SMIT: Let's stop here.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.

17 LOU SMIT: Because I don't want to get into

18 another area before noon. And I'd like to go over

19 these notes a little bit. There's a few think that

20 I think and we can just start again.

21 (BREAK TAKEN)

22 LOU SMIT: Okay. The time now is approximately

23 five minutes till one. Still on Tuesday the 23rd

24 of June, 1998. And present in the room again is

25 everybody that was here before. And we did break

0111

 1 for lunch.

 2 I think when we left off, John, was when you were

 3 driving into the garage at home. This would have

 4 been during the evening of Christmas of 1996. so

 5 later on what I'm going to have you do is draw on

 6 the diagram where you went in the house and

 7 everything. But for now let's just talk about it,

 8 okay. And kind of walk through it. And I know this

 9 is going to probably get harder as it goes, but

10 we'll get through this at some point.

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

12 LOU SMIT: Now you go home after leaving the

13 Stines. To your knowledge JonBenet is asleep in

14 the backseat and she's directly behind you?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

16 LOU SMIT: You pull into the garage. And just

17 let me, we're kind of going slower through this.

18 How do you get into the garage? I mean, does it --

19 JOHN RAMSEY: We have a garage opener in the

20 car and, as I recall, I think I parked on the

21 right side of the garage. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it

22 was the right side. And the kind of routine was

23 that I took JonBenet out and Patsy took care of

24 Burke. But JonBenet was sound asleep. In fact, I

25 was surprised at how she was because I picked her

0112

 1 up or tried to pick her up and she was just really

 2 out. Because I kind of struggled a little bit to

 3 get her in my arms.

 4 LOU SMIT: Is that a two-door or four-door

 5 car?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Four-door.

 7 LOU SMIT: Okay.

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: And I just remember thinking,

 9 (Boy, she is really out.̃ Because I sort of

10 struggled a little bit. It wasn't graceful getting

11 her out, and yet she didn't wake up. And carrying

12 her up stairs, up the back stairs and lay her on

13 the bed. I don't remember --

14 LOU SMIT: Well let's go through that slowly.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: All right.

16 LOU SMIT: In other words, you had her in your

17 arms? Now do you have a door between the kitchen

18 and the garage there?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

20 LOU SMIT: Did you precede Patsy or did you --

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Gee, I don't remember. That door

22 is normally unlocked because we lock the garage

23 door and then we don't lock that door. And it's

24 kind of, as I recall, it's kind of one of these

25 latch handles so it's easy to open, I think. I

0113

 1 don't remember who went in first.

 2 I had JonBenet in my arms. Her head was in this

 3 arm, and we went in the backdoor?

 4 LOU SMIT: In the (INAUDIBLE) room?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: To the (INAUDIBLE) and up the

 6 little spiral staircase.

 7 LOU SMIT: Where you carried her in your arms

 8 up the spiral staircase?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) and --

10 LOU SMIT: Does the garage door close

11 automatically?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

13 LOU SMIT: Or was it open for a little while?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it doesn't close automatically.

15 There's a button by the door. Normal practice

16 would have been to close it from the inside at

17 some point.

18 LOU SMIT: Think about this. You had her in

19 your arms (INAUDIBLE)?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember closing the

21 door myself. I only remember carrying her.

22 LOU SMIT: Think about that at some point,

23 okay? Now you do remember going up the spiral

24 staircase?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes.

0114

 1 MIKE KANE: In terms of the button on the

 2 garage door, is it on the interior of the garage

 3 or the interior of the house?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it's on the interior

 5 of the house.

 6 MIKE KANE: So you can be fully in the house

 7 before you push that button?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: I believe so, as I recall,

 9 yeah.

10 So, anyway, I took her upstairs, laid her on the

11 bed. Usually what I would do, and I remember

12 either taking her shoes off or taking her coat

13 off, kind of getting her sort of started and then

14 Patsy took over getting her into bed. I went down

15 stairs --

16 LOU SMIT: How did you get downstairs?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably the back stairway,

18 which is normally how I would have gone up and

19 down. But I'm not really sure.

20 LOU SMIT: But that's from --

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I started to get Burke

22 into bed; get him ready. And he was sitting in the

23 living room working on a toy, an assembly little

24 toy he got for Christmas. And I could see that I

25 was going to get him to go easy. So I sat down and

0115

 1 helped him put it together to try to expedite the

 2 process. So we did that together and it took us

 3 ten or twenty minutes, I guess. And then he went

 4 up to bed. And then we went up to bed. And I think

 5 we used the front stairs (INAUDIBLE).

 6 LOU SMIT: And what time was it that you got

 7 (INAUDIBLE)?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: It was probably nineish, 9:15

 9 maybe. (INAUDIBLE).

10 LOU SMIT: So you looked for Burke?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Then I got Burke on his

12 way to bed. I guess I must have gotten him for

13 bed, but I don't remember now for sure. But he got

14 in bed, and by the time I got to bed I think Patsy

15 had already been.

16 LOU SMIT: You just go right directly from

17 Burke and came upstairs? Is that what your saying?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I believe so.

19 LOU SMIT: And what is your routine then?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I just got ready for bed:

21 brushed my teeth probably. I did take a Melatonin

22 that night.

23 LOU SMIT: Where do you keep that?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Just in my medicine or in my

25 sink or in the drawer because I wanted to get to

0116

 1 sleep right away, to sleep well, because I knew I

 2 had to get up the next morning early. And I might

 3 have read for a few minutes; I think I did. It was

 4 probably tenish or something in that range.

 5 LOU SMIT: Okay. So now did Patsy precede you

 6 into bed or you did say that she went to bed. Do

 7 you remember saying anything important?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Important? I know that she might

 9 have been asleep. I don't remember saying

10 anything. Patsy is called the sleep queen when she

11 goes to sleep. When she goes to sleep, she gets in

12 bed and she goes to sleep.

13 LOU SMIT: When you normally go to bed, and

14 especially that night, everybody has a way of

15 getting rid of the (INAUDIBLE) they got on

16 (INAUDIBLE). What is your habit of doing that? I

17 mean, what do you remember doing that night?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Normally, and I don't mean

19 specifically, normally I would have changed in the

20 bathroom. Sometimes I would hang the clothes on

21 the hook on the back of the door. We had the

22 laundry chute. If the stuff was dirty I would

23 typically take it to the laundry chute.

24 LOU SMIT: Can you think of anything

25 specifically (INAUDIBLE)?

0117

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I really don't remember.

 2 LOU SMIT: No. Did either you or Patsy feed

 3 JonBenet anything before you went to bed?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

 5 LOU SMIT: An you are positive?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I am positive. She was sound

 7 asleep. And I certainly didn't and just based on

 8 discussions afterward, and then Patsy said she did

 9 not.

10 LOU SMIT: What does Patsy normally do with

11 her clothing when she gets into bed?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Where it lands is where it

13 stays.

14 LOU SMIT: Oh, I see.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: She usually changes in the

16 bathroom so it's usually draped over the tub and

17 off to bed.

18 LOU SMIT: Now do you put on pajamas (INAUDIBLE)?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Usually. Usually. I don't remember

20 now what I had on, but yeah, usually I wear some

21 kind of pajamas, yeah.

22 LOU SMIT: How about Patsy?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

24 LOU SMIT: She wears pajamas also?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

0118

 1 LOU SMIT: Normally all to bed?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: To bed.

 3 LOU SMIT: And you said the normal procedure

 4 is to brush your teeth and everything?

 5 (INAUDIBLE).

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't that night. No.

 7 LOU SMIT: Now let's think throughout the

 8 night. I know you probably thought that a 100

 9 times. Did you hear anything throughout the night?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not a thing.

11 LOU SMIT: Let's talk about the sounds in your

12 house. Have you ever been wakened by your children

13 before at night?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall I ever have been.

15 They would sometimes they would come in the bed

16 with us. But I don't remember ever being awakened

17 by a noise or (INAUDIBLE).

18 LOU SMIT: Would either JonBenet or would

19 Burke ever cry out in their sleep if they had bad

20 dreams?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember Burke used to talk

22 in his sleep. But crying out, no, I don't remember

23 that.

24 LOU SMIT: Could you ever hear Burke talk

25 in

0119

 1 his sleep?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember, no.

 3 LOU SMIT: In Burke's room, does he have an

 4 aquarium?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes.

 6 LOU SMIT: Can you describe any noises that

 7 that makes?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: It just has a normal pump. It

 9 was (INAUDIBLE), it's not particularly noisy.

10 LOU SMIT: How about, in almost every house,

11 especially my house, did you ever hear noises

12 associated with (INAUDIBLE) home noises? Can you

13 remember anything, maybe not that particular night

14 but any other night?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I really can't. I mean we hear

16 noises from -- when we hear noises, it was

17 typically from outdoors from students.

18 LOU SMIT: You can hear that from your room?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: We always slept with the windows

20 open.

21 LOU SMIT: How did you sleep that night with

22 your windows open?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably cracked. I always

24 liked to have the window open. But it was winter

25 night so we cracked it probably.

0120

 1 LOU SMIT: Where are the windows located

 2 in your room?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: This is the window I usually

 4 open. This is the window to (INAUDIBLE). They're

 5 crank out windows. They were new windows. If I

 6 would have followed my normal procedure, I would

 7 have cracked that open a little bit. In the

 8 summertime, we would have them open.

 9 The only time remember being awakened is from

10 student noises or something going on in the

11 street.

12 LOU SMIT: Your neighborhood itself, is it

13 normally quiet?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: It's, except for the students,

15 well I presume they're students, and you can hear

16 some carrying on late at night from time to time,

17 usually on the weekends.

18 LOU SMIT: Now, you said you had taken that

19 Melatonin, how many tablets did you take or do you

20 remember that?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't remember exactly.

22 Probably I think one. It's a guess.

23 LOU SMIT: Were you under any other medication

24 at that time at all that you can think of

25 (INAUDIBLE)?

0121

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: No. The only medication I took

 2 from time to time was for allergies. I don't

 3 recall. I don't think I was on any allergy

 4 medication.

 5 LOU SMIT: How about Patsy? Like Patsy, before

 6 she went to bed would she ever take any medicine?

 7 Would she have any medicine?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: She had some vitamins and things

 9 like that that she took. I don't think that she

10 had any medical medicine.

11 LOU SMIT: No prescription drugs?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't believe so.

13 LOU SMIT: Not even for the cancer?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so. I think she

15 was pretty much off all medication once they got

16 into the natural vitamins and things like that.

17 She probably took those.

18 LOU SMIT: How about in your medicine

19 cabinets? Do you have any medicine in them?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, yes. There were lots and

21 lots of medicine.

22 LOU SMIT: Can you name one of them?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, there was -- I would be

24 guessing. I'm sure there were some antibiotics

25 from just her dad. Linda, my daughter, whose a

0122

 1 nurse came in once, actually before that, and she

 2 went through all our medicine cabinets and cleaned

 3 out all the old prescriptions and drugs that

 4 shouldn't be there. I know she through out a lot

 5 of stuff that just kind of accumulated.

 6 LOU SMIT: Do you remember what kind of shoes

 7 you were wearing that night especially?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't for sure. I looked at

 9 some of the pictures for them to show me shoes.

10 But they probably would have been shoes

11 (INAUDIBLE) pairs of shoes. But I've had these for

12 a long time. If they were loafers, I'm sure.

13 LOU SMIT: Is that the type you normally wear?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably would have worn those for

15 that kind of occasion. I have some kind of like

16 dress boots, but there wasn't any -- I don't

17 recall.

18 LOU SMIT: When you came into the garage that

19 night, do you recall the conditions, the weather

20 conditions and the road conditions that may --

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, the drive way was totally

22 clear. I remember that because (INAUDIBLE). I mean

23 there was nothing going on weather wise, because I

24 would have noticed that because we were leaving in

25 the morning. So there was nothing going on weather

0123

 1 wise when we came in. It didn't give me any cause

 2 to worry what the weather was going to be like.

 3 LOU SMIT: Do you call that it snowed or

 4 rained?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: There was no snow at all when

 6 we came in. I got up the next morning and looked

 7 out. The sky was sort of breaking up. It look like

 8 some evidence of some snow in the trees, so it had

 9 snowed a little bit. But I remember thinking that

10 it was no big deal.

11 LOU SMIT: Where did you look out at that

12 time?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm pretty sure it was out

14 of my windows in the dressing area.

15 LOU SMIT: If you could show us that in the

16 diagram here?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Just study that. I remember

18 thinking that there was no concern.

19 LOU SMIT: Do you remember that there could

20 have been a light sprinkling of snow?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: There was a little snow in some

22 trees (INAUDIBLE).

23 LOU SMIT: Would that mean there was possible

24 snow in the driveway area (INAUDIBLE).

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't look specifically.

0124

 1 But I would have if it had been enough snow if I

 2 would have been concerned about the runway, for

 3 example, it would have caused me to think, (Oh

 4 oh.̃ All I remember thinking is (INAUDIBLE) it's

 5 not going to be a problem.

 6 LOU SMIT: And this here, what is your normal

 7 procedure for making your bed or for your bedding

 8 at night? What is your normal procedure?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Usually I'll get up. Eighty

10 percent of the time I'll get up before Patsy does.

11 Probably make my half of the whole thing most of

12 the time.

13 LOU SMIT: Is that the majority of the time?

14 Do you remember what you did that 26th?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think we made the bed

16 because I got up before Patsy. I woke up before

17 the alarm went off and she got up after that.

18 LOU SMIT: How (INAUDIBLE) or the previous day?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: We pretty likely did not make the

20 bed.

21 LOU SMIT: After Christmas?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I guess I didn't even have

23 time.

24 LOU SMIT: You mean it would have (INAUDIBLE)?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the kids were there. They

0125

 1 wanted to go down and open presents.

 2 LOU SMIT: So the bed would have been unmade

 3 probably when you went to bed?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Quite possibly. I don't remember

 5 specifically.

 6 LOU SMIT: What part of the bed do you sleep on?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I slept on this side.

 8 LOU SMIT: Which is the north side of the bed?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

10 LOU SMIT: Okay. You wake up the next morning

11 and you recall then what time it was? What time do

12 you remember it being?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think we set the time

14 for 5:30. I remember waking up before the alarm

15 went off. So it would have been 5:25 or probably

16 something like that.

17 LOU SMIT: What time do you normally get up?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Normally I get up naturally. I

19 don't set the alarm. I wake up 6:30.

20 LOU SMIT: So you specifically set the alarm

21 when you want to wake up at a certain time?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

23 LOU SMIT: You remember setting the alarm on

24 Christmas night?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember specifically

0126

 1 doing it. But I know I did because we had to -- we

 2 had wanted, because as I recall we wanted to take

 3 off at 7:00. It was a three-hour flight to

 4 Minneapolis. That would have gotten us there at

 5 11. The kids' flight got in at elevenish. I

 6 remember I wanted to leave, I didn't want to be

 7 late for the kids' plane.

 8 Typically with trips like that we're always

 9 late. We would need to be there at 7:00 and we'd

10 get there at 7:30. I wanted to be sure that we

11 were up at this time.

12 LOU SMIT: How about packing at all? I mean,

13 were you already packed?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm a light traveler when we

15 go to the lake. I've got clothes up there. I don't

16 remember packing anything. I probably would have

17 taken, it seems like I had a heavy coat I wanted

18 to take with me. But that was about it. Because I

19 got everything I --

20 LOU SMIT: What kind of a coat?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I would be guessing. I think

22 I was going to take a coat. Because it was have

23 been winter there.

24 LOU SMIT: What kind of clothes do you have

25 up there? You had that one that you were taking

0127

 1 with you?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I've got one kind. (INAUDIBLE)

 3 It's like a fake nagahide kind of. I think that's

 4 the coat I wanted to take.

 5 LOU SMIT: So you're a light packer and you

 6 don't remember packing anything?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm sure I didn't pack anything.

 8 I just took the coat. Anything I was setting to

 9 take I would have done in the morning. But the

10 only thing I remember is that I wanted to take

11 this coat.

12 LOU SMIT: Did you take a shaving kit?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, no. I've got all that

14 stuff up there.

15 LOU SMIT: So you got up. What about Patsy

16 and the kids? There were various things. What do

17 you remember about that?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: About us packing?

19 LOU SMIT: Um hmm.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I know we had some suitcases set by

21 the back door to go.

22 LOU SMIT: And the backdoor would have been?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: The garage door.

24 LOU SMIT: The back garage door. What kind of

25 suitcases would they have been?

0128

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: They were, as I recall, there

 2 was a black carryon, one of those, I remember it

 3 was a pop out.

 4 LOU SMIT: You remember that specifically?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty specifically. I think

 6 I

 7 had my computer; I think I had my little lap top

 8 computer there ready to go.

 9 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE)?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I think that was set out the

11 night before.

12 LOU SMIT: When would you have done that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't remember if that was

14 before we went to the Whites or after. I think it

15 was (INAUDIBLE).

16 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE)?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah.

18 LOU SMIT: And you would have just left that

19 by the door and then take it with you?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: As we left, yeah. I would take

21 it out.

22 LOU SMIT: It seemed like there was other

23 suitcases in the process of being packed? What

24 were the specific conditions of (INAUDIBLE)?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy had done some packing

0129

 1 in anticipation of the Big Red Boat trip because

 2 we were going to come home Friday and I think she

 3 had pre-packed some things for the kids primarily.

 4 So when we returned we could just grab our

 5 suitcases and go.

 6 LOU SMIT: All right. Now let's talk about

 7 the morning. And when you wake up what do you

 8 notice? What is the first thing upon awaking do

 9 you --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I went into the bathroom;

11 probably went to the bathroom, took a shower. Just

12 started to get dressed.

13 LOU SMIT: Did you ever have trouble during

14 the night going to the bathroom?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

16 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE)?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, yeah, usually once a night

18 I'll wake up and go to the bathroom and go back to

19 bed. I don't recall doing it that night. But

20 that's not unusual at all.

21 LOU SMIT: Okay.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: But I remember I was standing

23 at my sink and I was probably brushing my teeth or

24 combing my hair or something and I heard Patsy

25 scream.

0130

 1 LOU SMIT: Had you showered yet at that time?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, usually I take a shower

 3 the first time.

 4 LOU SMIT: Before you brush your teeth?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 6 LOU SMIT: Which bathroom did you use (INAUDIBLE)

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: This one back here.

 8 LOU SMIT: And you just use the shower?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Yeah, normally (INAUDIBLE)

10 the tub.

11 LOU SMIT: You know about what time it

12 was that you heard her scream?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have probably been

14 between 5:30 and 6:00. Probably around that time

15 period.

16 LOU SMIT: Did you see your wife get up that

17 morning?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

19 LOU SMIT: So you had already been in the bathroom

20 when she got up?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

22 LOU SMIT: Describe that scream?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: It was just a -- she screamed

24 my name and I knew, I could just tell that

25 something was just terribly wrong. And I just went

0131

 1 charging downstairs.

 2 LOU SMIT: Okay. Which stairs did you go down

 3 then?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: It was the spiral ones.

 5 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE)?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) Yeah.

 7 LOU SMIT: Okay.

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I went to the spiral ones.

 9 It seems to me she was coming up at the same time.

10 One of the things that these guys get nervous

11 about is when we tried to recall facts.

12 LOU SMIT: Right.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: But I'm telling you what I recall.

14 LOU SMIT: And that's what I'm saying, the best

15 you can recall. And sometimes to jiggle your

16 memory just a little bit. And a lot of times you

17 just kind of put yourself right back. I mean I

18 know it's hard to do, and I know that. But,

19 sometimes if you can do that a lot more details

20 come to mind.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

22 LOU SMIT: You run down the stairs?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: You know, Patsy is hysterical.

24 I don't remember exactly what she said. I believe

25 that it was like, (They have JonBenet,̃ and she

0132

 1 gave me this note?

 2 LOU SMIT: Where were you at that time?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I was either landing

 4 here or I had gone partially down the stairs. It

 5 was somewhere in this area.

 6 LOU SMIT: You would have been on the second

 7 floor then?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think. But it seems

 9 to me that somewhere here on the second floor,

10 partially down the stairs.

11 LOU SMIT: She had the note in her hand?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: As I recall, I remember I spread

13 it out on the floor just kind to absorb everything

14 quickly.

15 LOU SMIT: Tell me how you spread that out.

16 I mean, do you remember how the pages were like,

17 three --

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well there were three together and I

19 just kind of spread them out. I think there were

20 three pages. I spread them out next to each other

21 so I could look at the whole thing instantly.

22 LOU SMIT: Okay.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: And I remember just screaming.

24 Just --

25 LOU SMIT: What was the first thing then that

0133

 1 struck you when you read the note? I mean your

 2 first impression after reading that?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well you first impression was

 4 that you can't believe it. And I can remember, we

 5 have your daughter. And it's the strangest feeling

 6 I could ever imagine.

 7 LOU SMIT: Are you standing reading the

 8 (INAUDIBLE)?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I kind of got on my knees,

10 because I had them on the floor.

11 LOU SMIT: How were you dressed?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I had underwear on; I

13 had a shirt on. I don't think I had on my shirt

14 shirt. It was just an underwear thing.

15 LOU SMIT: How long did it take you?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Moments, I guess. I don't know.

17 I think I ran upstairs to look at her room. I

18 think Patsy said -- I don't know if she checked on

19 Burke. I don't know if she checked on Burke. I

20 remember running around a lot.

21 LOU SMIT: Let's think back just a little bit,

22 John, because sometimes that's important. The

23 sequence of things.

24 First of all, I notice that you need glasses

25 read. How was it that you could read that note?

0134

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: It was fairly large print,

 2 as I recall. But I can read, if I have to.

 3 LOU SMIT: What was the lighting like there?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Seems to me it was -- I don't

 5 remember it being dark out. But the light was

 6 good.

 7 LOU SMIT: Were any of the lights on in the

 8 hallway?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: They could have been. Probably

10 were.

11 LOU SMIT: Why?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Just because we would normally

13 turn that hall light on.

14 LOU SMIT: Where is the switch for that located

15 for the hall light?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: There's one here in the kitchen.

17 There's one here and one over here. There's

18 (INAUDIBLE) three light switches were here; one

19 here, over here and back here.

20 LOU SMIT: Now, you were reading the note,

21 and just try to think of -- first of all, where

22 was Patsy at that time?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember us both being kind

24 of in this area. She was in here, I was here on

25 the floor. She was just hysterical.

0135

 1 LOU SMIT: Was she asking you any questions?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: What should we do, what should

 3 we do. And if we should call the police. And there

 4 was a (INAUDIBLE) that says not to call the

 5 police, so I called the police anyway. But she

 6 did; she called 911. And then she also called the

 7 Whites and the Fernies.

 8 LOU SMIT: Why would she? Why did she do that?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: They were close friends. And

10 I remember her just screaming, (Come over, come

11 over.̃

12 LOU SMIT: Did you do anything before the

13 911 call that you can think of?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we both checked JonBenet's

15 room and probably Burke's room before that.

16 LOU SMIT: Describe to me how you checked

17 their rooms?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think I ran upstairs

19 up the spiral staircase to her room and went in

20 and looked around and she wasn't there.

21 LOU SMIT: Describe how you looked around?

22 Did you look under the bed? What did you do?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. I tell you I

24 looked more later in the morning.

25 LOU SMIT: We'll get to that. Okay.

0136

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: She wasn't in her bed.

 2 LOU SMIT: Patsy was with you at that time

 3 when you checked in JonBenet's room? You said we?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think she was. I think

 5 she checked, I don't know think she was with me,

 6 as I recall. She might have been right behind of

 7 me. There was just a lot of running around

 8 LOU SMIT: So that's before you called the

 9 police, is that right?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm pretty sure it was, yeah.

11 LOU SMIT: Do you remember either of you going

12 to Burke's room at that time?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we did. I think I did.

14 I remember going to his room. I don't remember if

15 it was directly from there to his room or if I

16 went downstairs and back up. But we checked his

17 room pretty shortly thereafter.

18 LOU SMIT: Was this before the police were

19 called or after?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I think before or at least

21 -- I'm not sure.

22 LOU SMIT: When you checked --

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Cause we called the police

24 pretty quick.

25 LOU SMIT: Okay. When you checked his room,

0137

 1 what did you see and how did you --

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I just looked in and he was

 3 in bed and he was asleep. I mean I knew he was

 4 there and he was okay.

 5 LOU SMIT: Was the light on in his room?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't remember.

 7 LOU SMIT: Was the door closed or did he leave

 8 it open? Do you remember that?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: No, not specifically, I don't.

10 LOU SMIT: After that, then what do you do?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well sometime in that sequence,

12 I mean, Patsy called 911. I might have looked

13 around the house some more.

14 LOU SMIT: You have to describe that just a

15 little bit.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I know I looked in the refrigerator.

17 We have this walk-in refrigerator. We always

18 worried about the kids getting in there.

19 LOU SMIT: Before or after the 911 call?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was after, probably.

21 You see, as I recall, that was pretty quick.

22 LOU SMIT: Okay. Now you've called the police.

23 Patsy calls the police. Are you there with her

24 when she calls the police?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm -- yeah.

0138

 1 LOU SMIT: Where is she at?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: She's at the phone in the kitchen.

 3 It's here, yeah, right here. I think I stood kind

 4 of right here.

 5 LOU SMIT: All right. Do you remember what she

 6 said on that 911 call?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: She was screaming, as I recall.

 8 I remember her struggling to make the person

 9 understand what the emergency was (INAUDIBLE).

10 LOU SMIT: So then the 911 call was made.

11 Do you hear Patsy then call her friends, or were

12 her friends called before?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, they were called after. I

14 remember hearing her scream, (Come over, come

15 over.̃

16 LOU SMIT: Where were you when you heard her

17 scream?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I was still in the same

19 general area. But I don't think -- somewhere here.

20 I was on the first floor, I think.

21 LOU SMIT: So then what? Then what do you do?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well before the first policeman

23 arrived I went upstairs and put on some pants and

24 a shirt and probably looked through the house some

25 more. You know.

0139

 1 LOU SMIT: Just think about that just for a

 2 little bit. I probably went down (INAUDIBLE) At

 3 various through the morning I was checking to see

 4 what was locked.

 5 LOU SMIT: Was that later or was that right

 6 after --

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it wasn't a thorough --

 8 once (INAUDIBLE) backdoor, it was right there.

 9 LOU SMIT: Here? That's the south door.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. But it was locked, I'm

11 sure.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you remember when you checked

13 that?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not specifically. In your mind,

15 first of all you felt like you've been hit with a

16 baseball bat in your stomach and your mind is just

17 going mad. So it was a crazy time.

18 LOU SMIT: John, I just want to bring you

19 back to your reading the note here, okay? You come

20 down the spiral staircase, read the note?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

22 LOU SMIT: Okay. Do you remember what the

23 temperature was at that time in the house, or do

24 you remember anything unusual at that time?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. It was odd.

0140

 1 LOU SMIT: Now before the police come, you

 2 say you go back upstairs and you put on a shirt

 3 and pair of pants. Do you remember how Patsy was

 4 dressed at that time? Or do you have any

 5 recollection at all of how she was dressed?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. No.

 7 LOU SMIT: What's your first recollection

 8 then just before the police come? And just before

 9 the police come what were you doing?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I'm sure I started to

11 check some of the areas, like the refrigerator and

12 just trying to check this area?

13 LOU SMIT: Did you ever check this area,

14 the butler's kitchen?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember

16 specifically looking there, no. I might have, but

17 I don't remember.

18 LOU SMIT: How much of a time period

19 that call was made and the police officer arrived?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: It wasn't very long. Five

21 or ten minutes, maybe. Yeah. I remember I came in

22 and I came back and let him in the hallway. I

23 said, (My daughter's been kidnapped. Here's a

24 note.̃ And he said, (Are you sure she just didn't

25 run away?̃ and I said, (For God sake, she's only

0141

 1 six years old.̃ And I sort of had to convince that

 2 we really had a problem here.

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: But, he was good, he was pretty

 4 good on the uptake.

 5 LOU SMIT: Just try to take it in slow steps.

 6 You know what you did with the officer and how you

 7 proceeded then; (INAUDIBLE)?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: We were standing in the hallway.

 9 We were handing him the note trying to explain and

10 convince him that we had a problem. And at some

11 point he asked us all to go into this room here

12 and stay there.

13 LOU SMIT: That's the solarium?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. The Fernies and the

15 Whites were arriving at sometime between - I think

16 he got there first. But at some point he kind of

17 shepherded us all in there and asked us all to

18 stay there. (INAUDIBLE)

19 LOU SMIT: What did you do with the not?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I gave it to him. I think at

21 that point he kept it. I mean I don't remember him

22 giving it back to me. I do remember later we had,

23 I think they made copies but we had it spread out

24 on the table back here just trying to figure out

25 what we could figure out.

0142

 1 LOU SMIT: Are you with the officer from

 2 when he comes in? What is your association with

 3 that officer? Is it constant; is it sporadic?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: It's fairly constant, as I

 5 recall.

 6 I mean, you know, it's help and what can we do and

 7 what have we got to do.

 8 LOU SMIT: Where do you go with him? With

 9 the officer?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think another fellow

11 came fairly quickly after that and one of them

12 went through the house. (INAUDIBLE) another and I

13 think there were several that came very quickly;

14 uniformed police. And I remember they moved their

15 cars from in front of the house because they

16 didn't want people that we had called the police.

17 But at one point there were some five or six

18 uniformed police in the house. And then a couple

19 people from Victim's Advocacy came too.

20 LOU SMIT: Did you look in JonBenet's room

21 with the officer?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Possibly. I don't remember. I'm

23 sure I remember trying to go through to the parts

24 of the house.

25 LOU SMIT: See, that would help us to find out.

0143

 1 What floor would you have gone through, I mean how

 2 would that have been?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think the first thing

 4 that perplexed me, was how could they have got in

 5 and how could they have got in the house. And he

 6 was trying to look for a how come they got in. And

 7 then I thought about it later, I don't remember

 8 when, I started wondering was anybody watching the

 9 house, because the note said they would be

10 watching.

11 So I went up to my bedroom and looked out the

12 window and then I went to Burke's room and looked

13 out the windows with some binoculars and I was

14 looking at cars that were driving by. There was a

15 truck that was parked in the alley across the road

16 that I had never noticed before and I was watching

17 the truck to see if possibly somebody who was --

18 What was going through my mind was, when we lost

19 Beth I was in my office. I got a phone call from

20 my brother and he said Beth is dead. There was

21 nothing I could do about it. I couldn't go an

22 visit her. It was over.

23 With JonBenet, I felt we were going to get her

24 back. And I remember mustering every ounce of

25 mental capacity I had to get her back. And, so

0144

 1 despite the fact that I was just going mad out of

 2 my mind and my daughter wasn't there, I was trying

 3 to muster logic and reason and, (Okay, settle

 4 down. Let's get her back.̃

 5 So after that first shock of, she's gone. I was

 6 like, okay, what are we going to do. Let's get her

 7 back. And so as the morning wore on that was what

 8 was driving me. So I was trying to figure out

 9 (INAUDIBLE) watching the house. What are we going

10 to do and all those kind of thoughts. And is she

11 in the closet or in the refrigerator or behind the

12 curtain.

13 Just kind of scatterbrain and just took that focus

14 and so --

15 LOU SMIT: You say you used binoculars.

16 Where did you get them from?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: They were from my bedroom,

18 I think. Probably (INAUDIBLE).

19 LOU SMIT: Okay. Did you use a flashlight

20 at that point?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

22 LOU SMIT: What kind of flashlight do you

23 have?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we've got several, I guess.

25 One that, I believe, came up as an item was this

0145

 1 MAG light flashlight. If it's the one I think it

 2 is, my son gave me that for a Christmas present a

 3 year or two ago. And that was probably in the bar.

 4 The bar drawer was typically where it was kept.

 5 LOU SMIT: You don't remember getting that?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I know I did not get it.

 7 LOU SMIT: Anyone else get it?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I recall. I don't even

 9 know it worked. Typically our flashlights didn't

10 work because we needed new batteries (INAUDIBLE).

11 We might have a few blown flashlights around.

12 LOU SMIT: Let's talk about the truck that

13 you say you see. Which window were you at when you

14 saw it?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I was in Burke's room.

16 Because the window is here.

17 LOU SMIT: Where was the truck parked?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was kind of behind the

19 Barnhills. There's an alley behind the Barnhills

20 and then almost like a house behind the Barnhills.

21 And I watched it for a while and there wasn't any

22 activity. I also saw a little white car that seem

23 to drive by (INAUDIBLE).

24 And I think it was early morning, the day after

25 Christmas. There wasn't much going on.

0146

 1 Specifically I do remember the truck; I remember

 2 seeing the white Ford Fiesta or something like

 3 that. It was a small white --

 4 LOU SMIT: And where was that at?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: It drove by --

 6 LOU SMIT: You got that picture of your house?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It drove on Cascade, drove

 8 down the street.

 9 LOU SMIT: Any other activity? When was this

10 that you were doing this, John?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: This was probably early part

12 in the morning as I was trying to grasp what was

13 going on. Probably before, some time between six

14 and ten. Because we started to wait for the call.

15 We were ready for the call. I think he said he

16 would call at ten or after ten. And so we were

17 ready for that call. (INAUDIBLE) before that.

18 LOU SMIT: So you were anticipating the call from

19 the kidnapper? You made a series of calls that

20 morning. Can you remember it just kind of in

21 sequence how you did that?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I called -- I wanted to get

23 hold of Mike Archuleta who was waiting for us at

24 the airport by that time. I think they got a

25 number which rings into the cell phones they carry

0147

 1 with them: 877-4286, I think it is.

 2 I might have called that number. I don't remember

 3 if I got Mike or I got Rich, his partner. I got

 4 one of them. It seems like I got Rich.

 5 LOU SMIT: When was that call made?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well this would have been probably

 7 maybe 6:30, 7:00 I guess. Because I think he was

 8 waiting for us (INAUDIBLE). My older kids, at that

 9 time, had gotten on their plane to go to

10 Minneapolis, so there was no way I could

11 (INAUDIBLE). So I wanted to enlist Mike's help to

12 get in touch with them.

13 He volunteered to go to Minneapolis and pick them

14 up. I didn't want him to do that. So I just asked

15 him to get a hold of them when they got to

16 Minneapolis. So he took care of that.

17 And then I called Rod (INAUDIBLE) office, he's my

18 stockbroker and friend, to get the money together.

19 And that was probably fairly early, around 7:00,

20 7:30, around there. Rod was, I think he was at

21 home getting ready to go to his parent's place in

22 Mississippi, or he was at his parents. I don't

23 know which it was. But I was trying to get a hold

24 of him.

25 John Fernie, who was there, had a friend who was a

0148

 1 head of a bank in Boulder, and so John kind of

 2 took over that role, getting the money together.

 3 Then Rod called and I basically told him what was

 4 going on. (INAUDIBLE) called back before he called

 5 back. Several times. And every time the phone rang

 6 my heart would stop. And they arranged to

 7 increase, just give me a credit line of $100,000

 8 or whatever it was, 120.

 9 And then John arranged with his bank to withdraw

10 $118,000 against my visa card. And I remember

11 John going bank to work on them so that. It seemed

12 like later in the morning. It was probably later

13 in the morning; nineish; eightish, nineish.

14 Somewhere in that region.

15 Those are the only calls I remember making. At

16 some point the (INAUDIBLE) called. I don't

17 remember if he was calling from our house or the

18 Fernies called before they left. But he came later

19 from homicide. And then people started to arrive.

20 LOU SMIT: How many phones do you have in

21 the house?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we had several. Some of

23 them didn't work. We had one in the solarium, we

24 had one in the kitchen, one back here.

25 LOU SMIT: All extensions?

0149

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. In terms of the number

 2 of phone lines, I think we had two. I had two. I

 3 think there was one that came out of here for the

 4 computer modem. It wasn't part of the rest of the

 5 house system. There is one here in the study.

 6 There's one in the basement

 7 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE)?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: There's one jack here but it

 9 didn't work. I think there was phone in Patsy's

10 room. But that was it.

11 LOU SMIT: But just two lines basically other

12 than the modem line, or does that make it three?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Just a modem line and three

14 phone lines.

15 LOU SMIT: And what was your phone number at

16 that time, if you remember?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I (INAUDIBLE).

18 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) that's fine.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember.

20 LOU SMIT: Where did you wait for the call

21 mainly?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I remember when Detective

23 Arndt came in, the uniform guy was trying to keep

24 everybody in the back room here and, then there

25 were a lot of people in there. There were

0150

 1 detectives there and they had their quarters set

 2 up. They had cell phones. We were back in here, I

 3 know, for a little while. And Arndt was down the

 4 hall (INAUDIBLE) in the study.

 5 So then she took me up to his bedroom and we sat

 6 in this room and talked about it.

 7 LOU SMIT: That's called the guest bedroom?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Well we call it John Henry's

 9 room.

10 LOU SMIT: John Henry's room.

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. She had kind of methodically

12 went through; look here's what we have to do: when

13 this person calls you've got to insist that you

14 talk to JonBenet and stall for time. And I said

15 why, and (INAUDIBLE) got everything. Tell him it's

16 a hard job to raise that much money and use the

17 time. But you must talk to JonBenet.

18 So she was just coaching me on what to say, and

19 then we were just waiting for the phone to ring.

20 Mostly, as I recalled, I kind of waited in this

21 room, cause the phone was here. Which was the one

22 that I think I answered. And it rang several times

23 (INAUDIBLE) hang up. When I answered it, it was

24 hung up. But most of the time it was --

25 LOU SMIT: When was the hang up?

0151

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that morning during that

 2 period of time, you got to hang up. But the other

 3 calls were either from Ron (INAUDIBLE), I think

 4 Shirley called, our old nanny. Who had

 5 coincidentally (INAUDIBLE).

 6 LOU SMIT: Shirley's?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I think Shirley called.

 8 LOU SMIT: Shirley Brady?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Shirley Brady. Because as I

10 recall I think I was kind of short with here

11 because I wanted to be off the phone.(INAUDIBLE)

12 wait in here for the phone to ring. And we waited

13 for the specific call. (INAUDIBLE) I mean we were

14 standing in this area here and Linda said to me,

15 (Why don't you take someone and go through every

16 inch house and see if you see anything out of the

17 ordinary. And so we were standing there.

18 LOU SMIT: Okay. Let's back up just a little

19 bit?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.

21 LOU SMIT: You said that you went through

22 the house at another period of time?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

24 LOU SMIT: I remember in your report. Did you

25 ever go down to the basement?

0152

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. I went.

 2 LOU SMIT: Who was with you at that time?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I was by myself. I was. I had

 4 gone down the basement. I went in the --

 5 LOU SMIT: You're going to have to back up a

 6 little so that the camera (INAUDIBLE)?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I came down the stairs. I went

 8 in this room here. This door was kind of blocked.

 9 We had a bunch of junk down here and there was a

10 chair that was in front of the door. Some old

11 things. I moved the chair, went into this room,

12 went back in here. This window was open, maybe

13 that far.

14 LOU SMIT: Okay. You said -- or how far

15 were

16 you? An inch?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: An inch, maybe, or less. It

18 was cracked open.

19 LOU SMIT: Which window?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was the little one.

21 There's three windows across here, as I recall. I

22 think it was the middle one. It was that was

23 broken. There was pane class broken out of it,

24 which I attributed to breaking myself.

25 LOU SMIT: People go into that basement?

0153

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: But it was open and there

 2 was

 3 a suitcase under it. This hard Samsonite suitcase.

 4 LOU SMIT: Describe how the suitcase was

 5 positioned?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was against the wall. I think

 7 the handle was on top. It was directly under the

 8 window, as I recall. And I closed the window, I

 9 don't know why, but I closed it. And then --

10 LOU SMIT: When you closed it, did you lock

11 it or close it?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I latched it. There's a little

13 latch on it.

14 LOU SMIT: And you're sure of that?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty sure, yeah. Yeah, I am

16 sure. I don't think I looked anywhere else. I

17 think at that point I still was trying to figure

18 out how they'd get in the house.

19 LOU SMIT: Well wouldn't that trigger your

20 (INAUDIBLE).

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah.

22 LOU SMIT: Did you tell anybody about that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't really remember. I mean,

24 part of what is going on you're in such a state of

25 disbelief this can even happen. And the, you know,

0154

 1 the window had been broken out. And you say hah,

 2 that's it. But it was a window that I had used to

 3 get into the house before. It was cracked and open

 4 a little bit. It wasn't terribly unusual for me.

 5 Sometimes it would get opened to let cool air in

 6 because that basement could get real hot in

 7 winter. So it was like, you know, after I thought

 8 about it, I thought it was more of an alarming

 9 situation how it struck me at the time. It was

10 still sort of explainable to me that it could have

11 been left open.

12 And the suitcase was unusual. That shouldn't have

13 been there. I took that suitcase downstairs, I

14 remember. But I sure wouldn't have taken it all

15 the way back there and put it against the window.

16 LOU SMIT: Okay. Let's talk about suitcases a

17 little bit as long as your talking about it now.

18 It was right up against the wall?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

20 LOU SMIT: And you said you had taken that

21 down. When did you?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Months before, probably, months

23 before, two months before. It was one of these big

24 Samsonite suitcases that, I don't know, the kids

25 used it to bring some clothes home, the older

0155

 1 kids. Sometimes it ended up at our house. I don't

 2 think it was our suitcase. It seemed to belong to

 3 Cindy Johnson, my ex-wife.

 4 But it was here for a while. It was up in the

 5 laundry room. I remember taking it downstairs to

 6 clean up. And I think I just kind of sat it in

 7 this room here.

 8 LOU SMIT: That would be in that hall?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Just in the landing in the hall

10 area.

11 LOU SMIT: Okay.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: But I'm 99.9 percent taken I

13 wouldn't have taken it all the way back and set it

14 against that wall.

15 LOU SMIT: When you noticed it, about what

16 time was that? That's kind of important. In terms

17 of time now.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it would have been probably

19 before nine o'clock, I would say. It would have

20 been that time period: seven to nine. Cause I was

21 still, you know amidst all this other stuff,

22 trying to figure out what's going on here? How did

23 they get in the house? I know this is before Linda

24 told us to go through the house. It was well

25 before.

0156

 1 LOU SMIT: And was there lighting down

 2 there

 3 or anything at that time?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't specifically, I don't

 5 remember that it was on. The lights were probably

 6 off, which would have been normal.

 7 LOU SMIT: How would you have been able to

 8 basement with the lights off, or was it --

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: With the lights off at night

10 it would have been hazardous because there's a lot

11 of junk piled in here. This door was kind of

12 blocked with boxes and a little chair. And you

13 could move the chair and then walk right in. But

14 it would have been pitch black; it would have been

15 tough.

16 LOU SMIT: Did you say you had to move that

17 chair to get in?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

19 LOU SMIT: Any other areas you looked at?

20 You walked into that train room? Did you look in

21 any of the closets or in any other area?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember doing that.

23 I

24 think my purpose in going down there was to see,

25 to figure how they got in. But I don't remember

0157

 1 looking anywhere else on that trip in the

 2 basement.

 3 LOU SMIT: You didn't got to the wine cellar

 4 at that time?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

 6 LOU SMIT: How long would you say you were

 7 down there?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, a minute. Thirty seconds

 9 to a minute.

10 MIKE KANE: When was this?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was, if you're trying

12 to put in blocks of time, it was probably some

13 time between seven and nine.

14 MIKE KANE: Okay.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: That's probably as close as

16 I can come. It was earlier in the day.

17 LOU SMIT: Did you notice if any police

18 officers had checked that before?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I didn't. I don't know.

20 My impression was when they first came that

21 morning that one of them looked around.

22 LOU SMIT: Would that have been before you

23 went down there?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah, it might.

25 LOU SMIT: Do you remember the crime scene

0158

 1 techs coming with their equipment?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

 3 LOU SMIT: Would you know if he went down

 4 there before or after they were there?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Before, I would say.

 6 LOU SMIT: Okay.

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I think before.

 8 LOU SMIT: So after you checked the basement,

 9 what did you do then? Do you remember?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Not specifically. I came back up.

11 But I don't remember exactly what I after that

12 point. At one point I did go out to check this

13 door here because there was a bunch of boxes piled

14 in front of it. It was locked. Then I came out

15 here and went around and it was locked.

16 LOU SMIT: So you came out the south door

17 and checked the garage door and then you went back

18 in the south door. How long would that have taken?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Twenty seconds. Not very long,

20 thirty seconds, if that.

21 LOU SMIT: Other than that, did you ever

22 leave the house that morning?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

24 LOU SMIT: There have been some questions

25 about your activities between let's say 10:30 and

0159

 1 noon. Do you remember where you were between those

 2 two times?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I was either in this bedroom

 4 with Linda Arndt talking about procedure or what

 5 we're going to do, or I was waiting for the phone

 6 call. Because that was 10 to 12, as I recall, was

 7 when he would have called.

 8 LOU SMIT: Where was Fleet at this time

 9 or John Fernie? Did they ever talk to you?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh boy. I don't remember

11 specifically. But I know there were some other

12 people who were sitting back here and trying to

13 figure out what was going on. At that a point

14 there was a copy of the note on the table, and we

15 were trying to, you know, in our minds analyze

16 what it was were dealing with. And I think Fleet

17 was back there for a while. Fernie might have

18 been. I don't remember.

19 Fleet at one point took Burke, and this was

20 earlier in the morning, he took Burke over to his

21 house to be with little Fleet. John Fernie had

22 gone to the bank to work that issue. He came back

23 without the money and I said, (Where is the

24 money?̃ And he said, (The police didn't want me to

25 bring it to the house.̃ They were supposedly

0160

 1 copying bills frantically at a copying machine.

 2 That always struck me as funny. I expected him to

 3 come back with a bag of money. Somebody had

 4 instructed him not to bring the money back to the

 5 house.

 6 LOU SMIT: You say that Burke left. Do you

 7 recall the circumstances surrounding Burke leaving

 8 how he got involved in that?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Vaguely. I went into his room

10 to wake him up. I told him that JonBenet was

11 missing, gone. I remember him crying and just kind

12 of hustling to get up. I remember him delaying to

13 get a toy or Nintendo or something like that

14 before he left to take with him. Fleet took him in

15 his Suburban. They went out the front door.

16 LOU SMIT: Did he stop and get anything

17 to eat?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I doubt it. No. I mean, it

19 was a panic. I mean, we were just -- I don't even

20 remember that we got him dressed. I don't remember

21 specifically getting Burke dressed. I remember

22 discussing where should we take him; he needs to

23 get out of here; he needs to be safe.

24 LOU SMIT: Do you remember specifically ever

25 going out this door, the butler door?

0161

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: That morning?

 2 LOU SMIT: Yes.

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I did not. I know I did

 4 not.

 5 LOU SMIT: Do you remember anyone going out that

 6 door?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. That door, from time

 8 to time, I'd find wide open because if one of the

 9 kids would go out they'd leave it open. But in the

10 normal course of activity, I remember going down

11 there. And I think on a couple of occasions I went

12 door and the door was just wide open or unlocked.

13 LOU SMIT: Is it problem with the door or

14 is it a --

15 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I think it's just in

16 our house kids would come and go out of every

17 orifice and place and that was one of them.

18 LOU SMIT: I know we're going to get more

19 questions in regards to this. But I think this is

20 enough for now. But what I'd like you to them is,

21 just from the time that Linda Arndt told you

22 (INAUDIBLE) progress right in that time.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I mean, she said go

24 through every part of the house to see if you see

25 anything that's unusual. So I so Fleet, because

0162

 1 she wanted me to take someone with me. So Fleet

 2 was right there, so he went with me.

 3 LOU SMIT: What made you decide to go

 4 downstairs?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I just wanted to start

 6 logically from the bottom up, I guess, as I was

 7 looking at it. And I could have just as easily

 8 gone upstairs, but I went down. Probably just

 9 logically going through every inch of the house.

10 So I went down to the basement. I went into this

11 room with Fleet. I explained to him that this

12 window had been cracked open and I closed it. That

13 the window was broken, but I think it was broken

14 by me once before. We got down on our hands and

15 knees looking for some glass just to see.

16 LOU SMIT: What did you find?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we found a few fragments

18 of glass not enough to indicate that it was a

19 fresh break.

20 LOU SMIT: What did you do with those fragments?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: We might have put them on the

22 ledge, if I remember. It really wasn't much. We

23 had only found one or two. We might have put them

24 up here on the ledge.

25 LOU SMIT: Could you have put them on the

0163

 1 suitcase?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Ahhhh, it's possible but I

 3 don't remember doing that.

 4 LOU SMIT: Was the suitcase, when you came

 5 back, in the same spot it was when you had been?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I moved it to see or

 7 to look for glass then. But I think it was where I

 8 left it, where it was when I was down there

 9 before.

10 LOU SMIT: Did you look inside the suitcase?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

12 LOU SMIT: You knew what was inside of the

13 suitcase?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I presumed it was empty. It

15 should have been empty. I thought it was empty.

16 LOU SMIT: Okay.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: So we did that. I came back

18 out here and went right to this room.

19 LOU SMIT: So you left the train room?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I came right in here.

21 LOU SMIT: That's in the boiler, where the

22 boiler is?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I remember grabbing

24 the handle because the door was latched because I

25 expected it not to be latched. I reached out,

0164

 1 flipped the latch and opened the door and

 2 immediately looked down.

 3 LOU SMIT: And you say immediately?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: There was a white blanket.

 5 And I just knew that I had found her.

 6 LOU SMIT: How were you standing in the

 7 doorway when you observed that?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: I was probably right there.

 9 The door pulled open. The handle was on the left

10 side of the door and it opened this way, as I

11 recall.

12 LOU SMIT: So now, I just want to get that

13 right because when you opened the door, you could

14 look inside the room. Is the light on or off at

15 the time you open the door?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was off. I don't

17 remember it being on. It was off.

18 LOU SMIT: Would you be able to see into

19 that

20 room if the light was off?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I saw clearly, instantly.

22 Yeah.

23 LOU SMIT: Do you remember turning the light

24 on?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think I did. I remember

0165

 1 just this rush that I had found her and there was

 2 tape on her mouth. I took the tape off.

 3 LOU SMIT: We're going to get to that. I know

 4 that's hard, but we're going to get to that.

 5 You look inside there and you see that. Where is

 6 Fleet at this time?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I assume he's behind me, but

 8 I don't have any recollection (INAUDIBLE).

 9 LOU SMIT: Okay. What do you actually see

10 now,

11 I mean see in this room?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I see a white blanket

13 that's folded across her body neatly.

14 LOU SMIT: It was neatly folded across the

15 body?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

17 LOU SMIT: Now describe that just a little

18 bit? Was it --

19 JOHN RAMSEY: She was laying on the blanket.

20 LOU SMIT: Was it laying on the back?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. On the back. The blanket

22 was caught up around and crossed in front of her

23 as if somebody was tucking her in.

24 LOU SMIT: Talk about the tape?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: There was a piece of fairly

0166

 1 wide black tape, which I immediately took off. Her

 2 lips were blue.

 3 LOU SMIT: Where were you standing when

 4 you

 5 did that, John?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I was, she was like right

 7 there and I was right here.

 8 LOU SMIT: So you hadn't gone into the wine

 9 cellar, you were still on the north side of her at

10 that point?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Um hmm.

12 LOU SMIT: And the duct tape, do you remember

13 if it was adhered all the way to her mouth?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It wasn't really duct

15 tape, it was -- well I'm sure you've seen it. But

16 it was like black. It wasn't electrical tape. It

17 was kind of white, black, unusual tape, I thought.

18 LOU SMIT: What did you do with the tape?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I took it off with my

20 right hand and just dropped it. I didn't do

21 anything specific with it.

22 LOU SMIT: What else do you remember right

23 at that time?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I just remember just talking

25 and, (Come on baby.̃ And I tried to untie her

0167

 1 arms; they were tied up behind her head.

 2 LOU SMIT: Were they tied tight?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, very tight.

 4 LOU SMIT: They were very tight?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I noticed a spot in her coat,

 6 below the surface.

 7 LOU SMIT: How do you know they were tied

 8 tight?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Because they were -- you know,

10 her skin was swollen around. And they were not

11 easy to get off. I tried to untie them quickly and

12 I just picked her up carried her upstairs. I was

13 screaming. In fact, I couldn't even scream.

14 And then I brought her upstairs into the

15 living room and later there, at one point, tried

16 to untie the not further, and Linda Arndt stopped

17 me from doing it.

18 LOU SMIT: The knot?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

20 LOU SMIT: Where?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Up on her arms. And I didn't

22 notice the -- as I noticed the blood below the

23 surface, but I didn't notice this core around the

24 neck.

25 LOU SMIT: Now when you brought her up, did

0168

 1 you bring her from the basement, and did you meet

 2 anybody up on the first floor?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember anybody. I

 4 just remember bringing her in and laying her -- I

 5 mean there were people in the dining and living

 6 room. But I remember Linda Arndt kneeling down

 7 beside her. I was there and Linda said she's dead.

 8 And I didn't want -- Patsy hadn't come in the --

 9 LOU SMIT: When was Patsy --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: But I didn't know at the time,

11 but later, she was back in the study with Barbara

12 Fernie and I don't know who else. My emotion was

13 that I had found her, which was good. But she was

14 dead, which was horrible. But it was almost better

15 than not knowing. Cause not knowing where your

16 child is the most horrible feeling, I think, a

17 parent can experience. And that was (INAUDIBLE)

18 what had been going through our mind all that

19 morning.

20 So when I first found her I was like,

21 (Thank God, I found her.̃ I didn't want Patsy to

22 see her that way, and I ran upstairs and got a

23 blanket off one of the chairs, I think, it's got

24 a little shape like.

25 LOU SMIT: Upstairs?

0169

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably up in the TV room.

 2 I just ran up these stairs and went back down and

 3 put the blanket over her.

 4 LOU SMIT: At that time, what was Patsy

 5 doing?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think she'd come in

 7 the room yet. I think, what I remember later, was

 8 they wouldn't let her go into that room right

 9 then.

10 LOU SMIT: And when you say (theỹ, who?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Barbara Fernie and whoever

12 else was with her. I mean, she told me this later,

13 Patsy did.

14 BRYAN MORGAN: We've been doing this a lot

15 of time. I want to finish this part so we don't

16 have to go through this again.

17 LOU SMIT: I understand.

18 BRYAN MORGAN: Would you please do that and

19 give us some idea of how long, and then we can

20 take a break.

21 LOU SMIT: I think ten minutes and then

22 we'll probably --

23 MIKE KANE: I'm going to have some questions

24 about this too. I know we were going to come back.

25 I mean, we've been kind of doing this in a general

0170

 1 way and then I just wanted to stay out of it for

 2 now.

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I'm okay.

 4 LOU SMIT: I know it's very tough.

 5 MIKE KANE: And I'm sensitive to that too.

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I appreciate it.

 7 BRYAN MORGAN: You all understand how many

 8 times I've seen this gone on.

 9 LOU SMIT: I see that; I believe that.

10 BRYAN MORGAN: Please.

11 LOU SMIT: Do you want to continue?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes.

13 LOU SMIT: Just go ahead. And Mike I want

14 you to jump right in.

15 MIKE KANE: I'm trying to get the sequence

16 here. I don't know if it's clear. When, the first

17 thing in the morning, you had the note. You said

18 you got dressed and you were looking for her. Was

19 that before the police arrived?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I put on pants and a shirt

21 before the police arrived.

22 MIKE KANE: Yeah. But then you were doing

23 something to look for her at that point. And where

24 did you go first?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't remember

0171

 1 specifically. I remember, because the first thing

 2 that goes through your mind is: she's missing,

 3 where is she. And I remember opening the

 4 refrigerator; it's a walk-in refrigerator. I think

 5 I looked under the bed. There was nothing

 6 methodical about it. (INAUDIBLE).

 7 MIKE KANE: Did you go to the basement?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I didn't go to the

 9 basement till later.

10 MIKE KANE: Was there a reason?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I mean, the first thing

12 that came to my mind was the refrigerator. I don't

13 know why. I had to look in there and she wasn't

14 there. I mean it was a combination of trying to

15 see if she was in the house, to see how they got

16 in, and there's all this going through your mind.

17 Just what's going on.

18 MIKE KANE: Okay. And then I think you

19 said you did go in the basement to see how

20 (INAUDIBLE) Could you like just picture that scene

21 again and walk me through it?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, when I came down, I

23 mean, one of the things I noticed, okay, that door

24 is still blocked?

25 MIKE KANE: What do you mean it was

0172

 1 blocked?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, there were some boxes

 3 and there was like a barstool kind of thing

 4 sitting there. It wasn't obvious to me that

 5 anybody had gone through because I had to move the

 6 chair to get in, which I did. And then I came back

 7 in here and I noticed the window was broken, which

 8 fits from when I did it. But the window was open

 9 slightly.

10 MIKE KANE: It might have had a little

11 latch or something?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Just this little latch. But

13 what I did specifically notice was the suitcase

14 sitting under the window. That was not -- that

15 didn't fit. I could explain why the window was

16 broken or why it might have been partly open, but

17 the suitcase just kind of jumped out at me.

18 MIKE KANE: And you said that you had

19 previously taken that down? I think you said you

20 took it down to the laundry room. Are you talking

21 about the second floor laundry room?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I think it had been up

23 here for a while. The kids had gone in; they

24 unpacked or whatever. Maybe it was in this room.

25 It was somewhere up in this area.

0173

 1 MIKE KANE: Okay. I thought you meant the

 2 laundry area?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: No, no, the second floor.

 4 Because I took it down to the basement, but I just

 5 kind of sat it in this room. We weren't terribly

 6 neat, so putting stuff away was kind of a

 7 progression. So it got that far. But I absolutely

 8 did not move that.

 9 MIKE KANE: Now you said that that window

10 was open a bit, but that sometimes that had been

11 open before to let air --

12 JOHN RAMSEY: It was open for ventilation.

13 It was wide open, because with the heat all

14 winter, that room would really get hot. So if the

15 kids were down there and playing, you had to open

16 the window.

17 MIKE KANE: And that was a room where the kids

18 played in a lot with the train?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: The train was there. Burke

20 used to play with that. They didn't play there a

21 lot. Burke did, from time to time. But not so

22 much JonBenet. That was Burke's train room.

23 MIKE KANE: And so this was before or do

24 you remember if this was before or after the

25 Whites and Fernies (INAUDIBLE)?

0174

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was after,

 2 because they came fairly early.

 3 MIKE KANE: Was it long after?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I really don't remember

 5 specifically. The best I can do is, it was, I

 6 believe, after the police came. Because they had

 7 gone through the house before I figured out what

 8 I'm going to do. It was before ten o'clock. They

 9 had already done some preparation before that. So

10 it would have been before. Probably before nine.

11 So then somewhere between seven and nine.

12 MIKE KANE: Okay. I think it's, and this

13 may put things into perspective. I think you were

14 saying that you were expecting a phone call

15 between ten and 12. The note said between eight

16 and ten.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, really?

18 MIKE KANE: So does that note, does

19 that put into context, between eight and ten,

20 where were you?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) yeah. Really it

22 does. When we were ready for the phone call and I

23 was prepped about what I was going to say and I

24 was getting the family ready. And so between that

25 period of time we were just waiting for the phone

0175

 1 call and I was near the phone. And I was either in

 2 the study or on the first floor. I just waiting

 3 for it.

 4 MIKE KANE: So it would have been before

 5 that?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have been before

 7 that time period.

 8 MIKE KANE: But would if have been before

 9 the time that you said Linda prepped you? I

10 believe she arrived later on; she arrived around

11 eight o'clock or so?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was before that.

13 MIKE KANE: It was before that?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) my time --

15 MIKE KANE: No, I understand. That's why

16 trying to (INAUDIBLE).

17 JOHN RAMSEY: But if the note said, eight

18 to ten, which I don't remember.

19 MIKE KANE: Yes, it said that, eight.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: We were well prepared. There

21 was recorders set up; there was wire taps in

22 place; Linda had briefed me on what to say. So she

23 would have gotten there, gosh, quarter to seven,

24 seven. I'm sure --

25 MIKE KANE: Yeah. No, I'm just trying to

0176

 1 put the time --

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. But she was there for

 3 a while. She was there a good while before we were

 4 ready for the call.

 5 MIKE KANE: Okay. And now, there was another

 6 time that you went down, and that's when you went

 7 down with Fleet?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. That was after we waited

 9 and waited and it didn't appear we were going to

10 get a call.

11 MIKE KANE: So after that ten o'clock time

12 period was up, was there a discussion about, maybe

13 he'll call later or something (INAUDIBLE)?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I mean, first of all the

15 note said, we were going to call you tomorrow. We

16 didn't know if tomorrow was the 26th or the 27th.

17 We weren't sure. But it did say get a lot of rest

18 because you're going to have to travel a long way.

19 So it wasn't clear, totally clear, that it was

20 going be in the morning. But obviously we hoped it

21 would be. So I'm sure that was going through our

22 minds. That if he means tomorrow (INAUDIBLE).

23 But I remember we were standing out in this area

24 and Linda said, (Why don't you go through every

25 inch of the house and see if you see anything out

0177

 1 of the ordinary.̃ And it just seemed like the

 2 appropriate thing to do.

 3 MIKE KANE: So, from ten o'clock on after

 4 that time had passed, what do you recall even

 5 during that time? Were you still waiting for a

 6 call?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I think beyond ten, I don't

 8 remember how long.

 9 MIKE KANE: At some point you thought --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: At some point we sort of

11 figured, okay, maybe we weren't going to get a

12 call.

13 MIKE KANE: And what did you do at that

14 point? How did you occupy your time between that

15 and when you went downstairs?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't that I did much of

17 anything other than I was just waiting for that

18 call. And the phone rang maybe four, five, six

19 times during that period.

20 MIKE KANE: Okay.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: And I always jumped up and

22 answered it and the police got their recorders on.

23 It was always a false alarm.

24 MIKE KANE: Where was Fleet White during

25 that time after the phone call (INAUDIBLE)?

0178

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember specifically.

 2 I mean, I remember by that time it was just kind

 3 of, people were all over. I remember Father Rol

 4 sitting on the couch praying in the living room. I

 5 don't have any specific --

 6 MIKE KANE: And where were you most of the

 7 time?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Me?

 9 MIKE KANE: Yeah, you.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think a lot of the

11 time I was back here.

12 MIKE KANE: After that ten o'clock deadline.

13 Do you remember?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I think for the most part I

15 was on the first floor. I don't remember

16 specifically. But there was people in the living

17 room, so I was probably kind of back and forth.

18 And the police were in the kitchen.

19 MIKE KANE: Was Fleet talking to you at

20 all during that?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Fleet was taking frantic

22 notes, I remember that. I noticed that it was a

23 yellow note pad, and he was just writing; writing,

24 writing, writing.

25 MIKE KANE: Do you know what he was writing?

0179

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. No. No. I mean it

 2 was like every little thing I had to do or should

 3 do --

 4 MIKE KANE: Did you find that odd?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I guess at the time I thought

 6 he was just trying to do whatever he could to

 7 help, was my impression. And at the time, I didn't

 8 find it odd.

 9 MIKE KANE: Was he talking to you and

10 comforting you?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember that he

12 was. Comforting that I remember was coming from

13 Father Rol. That's all I really remember

14 specifically.

15 MIKE KANE: And at that point, I knew

16 that one time you said that everyone was in the

17 solarium, and then you said Patsy and a couple of

18 others maybe went back to the study. Were they

19 still back in the study right after that ten

20 o'clock or do you know if they were back in the

21 solarium?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. Cause the

23 two ladies from the Advocacy were in the solarium.

24 A lot of them were sitting on the floor. I

25 remember sitting on the floor with a pail beside

0180

 1 her because she was afraid she was going to throw

 2 up.

 3 I guess I remember her more in this room a lot

 4 than I do back there. I think they tended to stay

 5 in this room. We went back into this room.

 6 MIKE KANE: Bryan, I'm not sure, you said

 7 you don't want to go over it and I'm not sure

 8 exactly from what point to what point. Like, I do

 9 have questions about the night before.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: That's fine.

11 MIKE KANE: Questions about -- I don't know

12 whether you want to do this now or?

13 BRYAN MORGAN: John is anxious to get this

14 over with. The (INAUDIBLE) Q & A about what'd you

15 do next and what'd you do next. If he's up for it,

16 I'm up for it. I'm hoping that there will come a

17 time when we are finished with this. That's all

18 I'm trying to say.

19 MIKE KANE: That's fine. I understand. Okay.

20 You said that when you went down in the basement

21 that second time with Fleet, and you were back in

22 that room, you were looking for glass on the

23 floor. Why were you?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I was just trying to verify

25 in my own mind that I had in fact broken the

0181

 1 window last summer and it was cleaned up and this

 2 wasn't the break I was looking for. If there was a

 3 lot of glass there.

 4 MIKE KANE: Okay.

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Because I wasn't sure that

 6 that window -- well I did know it hadn't been

 7 fixed. But it didn't totally surprise me that it

 8 hadn't been.

 9 MIKE KANE: Okay. Now when you went around

10 to the wine cellar door, you said you pulled at it

11 and, I think you said, that you were surprised

12 that it was latched?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I just said I remember pulling

14 on it almost popping out of hand because it's

15 always been open. And I don't think the latch was

16 latched.

17 MIKE KANE: I think you said, (I didn't expect

18 it to be latched.̃ Was it normally not?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I'd say, I mean, the door was

20 kind of stuck anyway, so it wasn't common to latch

21 it.

22 MIKE KANE: Did that latch, and I've seen

23 pictures of it, it was on like a pivot?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: It was on a block of wood.

25 MIKE KANE: A block of wood, but it was

0182

 1 pivoted?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 3 MIKE KANE: Was it enough that it would fall

 4 down on its own or did you have to physically turn

 5 it?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I think you had to physically

 7 turn it.

 8 MIKE KANE: All right. Okay. Now, when you

 9 went inside to that room, you described the

10 blanket. And you said it was folded like -- I'm

11 just trying to get a mental picture of it. Was it

12 like --

13 JOHN RAMSEY: It was like an Indian papoose.

14 MIKE KANE: Okay.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: You know, the blanket was under

16 her completely. It was brought up and folded over

17 like

18 that.

19 MIKE KANE: Folded over, okay.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: It looked like, at that time

21 I didn't know the extent of the injuries, but it

22 looked like somebody had just put her there

23 comfortably, but tied up with her mouth gagged.

24 MIKE KANE: And John, I really understand

25 how difficult this is. Do you remember, was her

0183

 1 head exposed? Were her feet exposed?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Possibly.

 3 MIKE KANE: But not the rest of her?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, yeah, I think her

 5 feet were exposed. But her head was. Her head was

 6 tilted to one side. I was trying to hold her head.

 7 MIKE KANE: I'm not really clear (INAUDIBLE)

 8 you said that they were tied tight. But were her

 9 hands tied closely together or were they wide

10 apart?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was like that.

12 MIKE KANE: There were crossed like that.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember, yeah, her hands

14 were close together.

15 MIKE KANE: And you tried to untie one of

16 them? Were you successful?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Partly. I mean, I sort of

18 started to get them untied, but I guess I was

19 starting to realize that that would do any good.

20 MIKE KANE: And so at that point then, was

21 it then you just took her right upstairs?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I just picked her up and ran

23 screaming upstairs.

24 MIKE KANE: Okay. And was the blanket still

25 there?

0184

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

 2 MIKE KANE: Cause you took her out of the

 3 blanket and picked her up?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

 5 MIKE KANE: Okay. Anyone else there with

 6 there? Was there anyone wait (INAUDIBLE), that

 7 door right there? Did you come up?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I came up and came

 9 around this part right over here.

10 MIKE KANE: Okay. And you said you yelled

11 and I guess people in the house heard that.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

13 MIKE KANE: And they came running?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

15 MIKE KANE: Did you see everybody?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. All I

17 remember is Linda Arndt was there and Father Rol

18 was at her head.

19 MIKE KANE: Is there anybody that you

20 (INAUDBILE)?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. I mean

22 I've been thinking back, I don't remember Fleet

23 White saying anything when I was in that room. I

24 mean I felt like I was by myself. But that might

25 have been mistaken because I was. But from the

0185

 1 point I found her to the time I got her into the

 2 living room, I felt like I was by myself, that

 3 there was nobody around in that little room.

 4 After we laid and I put the blanket

 5 over JonBenet and Patsy came in, I said to the

 6 people with her, both Fleet and Priscilla

 7 individually kneeled over her, just for a minute

 8 or two. And then at that point --

 9 MIKE KANE: This is really important.

10 That blanket, I mean, was it like there was care

11 taken? It was neatly folded?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought so, yeah.

13 MIKE KANE: It wasn't like it was just

14 barely thrown over her?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it looked like somebody

16 was trying to make her comfortable, because it was

17 under her, completely under her head and brought

18 up around her, as if you would wrap a --

19 MIKE KANE: Papoose?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: -- a papoose.

21 MIKE KANE: I don't have anything else.

22 LOU SMIT: Okay. I think that we should

23 (INAUDIBLE)?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, it's frankly easier

25 now than it was.

0186

 1 LOU SMIT: Do you want to take a break?

 2 BRYAN MORGAN: Yeah.

 3 (BREAK TAKEN)

 4 LOU SMIT: Okay. You stayed in the house

 5 until -- do you remember what time that you left

 6 the house (INAUDIBLE)?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I'm always been messed

 8 up on my times, but we were leaving the house at a

 9 time when my older kids pulled up in a taxicab.

10 And they would have, my recollection is it was

11 around one o'clock. Mike Archuleta had contacted

12 them in Minneapolis. They were able to get on a

13 flight in Denver fairly quickly and then get a cab

14 from (INAUDIBLE) to our house. I mean they were

15 literally pulling in the cabs when were about to

16 get in the house to go to the Fernies.

17 LOU SMIT: Before you left, what did the

18 police tell you? I mean, normally they have

19 certain things that they tell someone. What did

20 they tell you prior to leaving?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: All I remember was they said,

22 yeah, we can leave the house. The coroner, I think

23 it was the coroner, came up with a form she wanted

24 to sign, because they had to do an autopsy and

25 they wanted me to sign it.

0187

 1 LOU SMIT: Were you given any instructions

 2 to call the police or what to do or anything like

 3 that?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember that we were.

 5 I remember at some point I mentioned to Larry

 6 Mason that we go to in Atlanta, I remember

 7 thinking that I would just -- when Beth died we

 8 went to Atlanta, cause that's our home. That was

 9 kind of my instinct, just to go to Atlanta,

10 because that's home (INAUDIBLE). And he said,

11 (Well, you need to stick around for a couple

12 days.̃ (I said okay.̃

13 LOU SMIT: He said to stick around?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: For two or three days. And

15 so we went --

16 LOU SMIT: Did he say when he would contact

17 you or anything like that?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: He might have, but I don't

19 remember. All I specifically remember was the

20 coroner giving me this form to sign and I signed

21 it.

22 LOU SMIT: Now when you were in the house

23 just prior to leaving, were you or -- did you take

24 any medicine or Patsy take any medicine?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember anything

0188

 1 about that.

 2 LOU SMIT: You know, to calm her down or

 3 anything like that?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: No, we didn't have anything

 5 like that.

 6 LOU SMIT: So then you go to the Fernies.

 7 Can you just kind of remember? This would have

 8 been during the afternoon. Can you just remember

 9 basically what you did as a family, Patsy and

10 yourself?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember much. I mean,

12 we went to the Fernie's house, we were in the

13 living room. The police might have been there. I

14 know we had a police officer 24 hours a day, which

15 we felt made us feel secure. We were very afraid.

16 LOU SMIT: Of?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Of the killer or who was

18 after us, who was trying to harm us. Were they

19 going to harm Burke. We were frightened. And

20 having the policeman there was very comforting. I

21 remember that. (INAUDIBLE) you leave, I don't

22 know.

23 But we pretty much just stayed in the

24 living room. People came in, or people were

25 coming. Dr. Bob came at some point that day. I

0189

 1 don't remember when. I mean, there was just --

 2 from that point for several days it's kind of just

 3 a blur. We were in the Fernie's house. There were

 4 lots of people. (INAUDIBLE).

 5 LOU SMIT: At that point did you get any

 6 medications for yourself or for Patsy?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: You know I think we did, yeah.

 8 But I don't remember specifically. At that time we

 9 didn't take any medication. It just didn't occur

10 to us that there was that option. But I think

11 fairly early on we got some kind of prescription.

12 Whatever it was, I don't remember. But I'm sure I

13 had a drink or two or three.

14 LOU SMIT: What did you drink?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know. But it would

16 have been a hard drink.

17 LOU SMIT: Did you take any medications

18 yourself?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. If they

20 were available, I'm sure I did. But I don't

21 remember at what point I started taking it.

22 LOU SMIT: How about Patsy?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I think they got her on

24 medication fairly quickly.

25 LOU SMIT: Do you know what it was? Do

0190

 1 you have any idea at all?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) well it was

 3 probably Dr. Bob, who's the physician there for

 4 the family; a pediatrician. A friend of ours.

 5 Cause I remember she came there and she was with

 6 her. I'm sure she (INAUDIBLE).

 7 But there were people, some very good

 8 charity (INAUDIBLE) who was with us and helped a

 9 lot.

10 LOU SMIT: Do you remember the first night?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember trying to sleep on

12 the floor. (INAUDIBLE). I think she was sleeping

13 on the (INAUDIBLE) in agony.

14 LOU SMIT: What was your interaction with

15 your wife at that time, or even earlier? Did you

16 have much interaction?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I think so. I mean, she was

18 in shock, I'm sure. I mean, I really don't

19 remember much that day. I remember sitting there

20 talking to Linda Arndt and Larry Mason. I don't

21 remember if it was that afternoon or the next day.

22 But it was within the time period.

23 I stayed on the couch. I knew they came and they

24 took us down to her bedroom and the basement to

25 talk to us privately because there were a lot of

0191

 1 people around.

 2 LOU SMIT: Do you remember what you

 3 discussed down there at that time?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't.

 5 LOU SMIT: Whether to contact the police

 6 or whether they would contact you or whether to

 7 come in for an interview?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: No. The only time I remember

 9 them asking us to come in for an interview, I

10 think it was the next day Linda Arndt and Larry

11 Mason had come and they were sitting on the couch

12 and we talked for while. And they said, (Can you

13 come to the police station.̃ And I said, (I don't

14 think I can do that physically. Can you just come

15 here?̃ and they said no, you need to go to the

16 police station. I remember that.

17 I remember Dr. Bob saying that Patsy was in no

18 condition to go out of this house. (INAUDIBLE)

19 talking, come here talk to (INAUDIBLE) I just

20 can't leave.

21 LOU SMIT: Was anything said about that

22 at this time? Did they try to talk you through --

23 JOHN RAMSEY: We said, (Why do we have

24 to go there? Why can't you come here.̃ And they

25 said, (Oh, we have records and we might have to

0192

 1 pull the file out and look at it.̃

 2 All we knew is that we couldn't physically get up

 3 and go downtown to the police station.

 4 LOU SMIT: Did you actually wear the same

 5 clothing you had on that day? Or did you take

 6 clothing with you?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I didn't take any clothes

 8 with me. I just left. I don't know how long I wore

 9 those clothes. People took care of us. That's all

10 I remember.

11 LOU SMIT: I know that relatives started

12 coming at that particular time too. How were they

13 notified?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. I know my

15 brother came; Rod (INAUDIBLE), a good friend from

16 Atlanta.

17 LOU SMIT: Your brother is Jeff?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. I don't remember

19 calling him. I probably did. But I don't remember.

20 I'm sure I probably called him that morning; the

21 morning of the 26th. But I don't specifically

22 remember doing it. But I'm sure I did.

23 LOU SMIT: Was someone in charge of, more

24 or less, the arrangements to bring JonBenet to

25 Atlanta?

0193

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we got in touch with

 2 the funeral home here, that was wonderful. I went

 3 out -- it might have been my brother and took care

 4 of everything. You know, there were people doing

 5 things for us. Our minister from Atlanta called

 6 and said he would be available at any time

 7 whenever we needed him. So we just kind of knew

 8 that was taken care of.

 9 When Beth died we got a cemetery plot.

10 (INAUDIBLE).

11 LOU SMIT: What kind of arrangements were

12 made with the airlines to go down there? Do you

13 remember that or was it just --

14 JOHN RAMSEY: For us to go?

15 LOU SMIT: Right.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember (INAUDIBLE) who

17 I worked for, was great. They called; and my boss

18 called and said they would do anything, anything I

19 needed. I remember they called and said they were

20 going to send -- I don't know, it just happened

21 that they called and said they were going to send

22 an airplane to pick us up; which I was really

23 touched by.

24 LOU SMIT: Had you been in contact with

25 Lockheed or anything? Was there any protocol or

0194

 1 procedure? You were an executive.

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't even remember

 3 how they became aware of it. I'm sure somebody

 4 told them.

 5 LOU SMIT: Is there a protocol for

 6 (INAUDIBLE)?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Lockheed is surprisingly

 8 not very security conscious. I mean, I kind of

 9 noticed this afterwards. You have to be a higher

10 level and I was a group president, and at that

11 level doesn't pay for a security alarm in your

12 home; three (INAUDIBLE) bucks, great. At that

13 level (INAUDIBLE) paid for a full-time guard,

14 frankly.

15 For some reason it didn't seem, looking back on it

16 now, my God that's (INAUDIBLE) more as a big

17 industrial defense contractor why would they want

18 they be more security conscious. But they were

19 wonderful to us. But they arranged for us to get

20 back to Atlanta.

21 These guys just set it up. The group president

22 told me, he said, you do whatever you need to do.

23 And so they called up the aviation department and

24 said, (INAUDIBLE) type of plane you got out in

25 Colorado. Can you get that approved. (INAUDIBLE)?

0195

 1 He didn't specifically approve that, but that's

 2 what they sent.

 3 So they sent out the (INAUDIBLE) That was just a

 4 really nice gesture because we didn't know how we

 5 were going to get back to Atlanta. We just knew we

 6 had to get back and that just kind of popped up.

 7 Whew.

 8 LOU SMIT: When you get back to Atlanta,

 9 and I have a few more questions, so just hold on.

10 When you get to Atlanta, and then you (INAUDIBLE)

11 for some time in Atlanta you have that conflict

12 between White. And I know you were probably good

13 friends --

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

15 LOU SMIT: -- at some particular point.

16 Just what caused this? Do you know Fleet that

17 well?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I thought I did. We knew

19 him for three years, or two years; two or three

20 years. We sailed together under some fairly

21 adverse circumstances. Fleet was always -- got to

22 know each other. We talked a lot, but it was

23 always about sailing. He kind of got me on that.

24 (INAUDIBLE).

25 But Fleet was, and some of this is in retrospect,

0196

 1 but apparently John Fernie wouldn't let him get on

 2 the plane. He was going to (INAUDIBLE) while he

 3 was flying back to Atlanta and John Fernie

 4 wouldn't let him get on the airplane. We were told

 5 because he was just crazy.

 6 LOU SMIT: I thought you said you were

 7 driven out there? What condition was this?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: He would tend to panic a bit.

 9 Not be controlled in a stressful situation. One

10 time we were sailing, we had come in, we just

11 crossed Lake Michigan and we had (INAUDIBLE) big

12 time and it was like 30, 40 knots and we were hold

13 in this harbor and dropped our sails and had our

14 engine on and we floated right in. And don't think

15 there were any waves because the wind was blowing

16 across the (INAUDIBLE) and the engine stopped.

17 So here we are about 40 knots from land and no

18 power. And I was steering and (INAUDIBLE) like,

19 what are you doing, there's this big break wall

20 coming at you. And so Fleet started screaming at

21 these boats passing us, (Throw us a line, throw us

22 a line.̃ And so they tried.

23 But if we had just thought a little bit together,

24 there's a lot of things we could have done. We

25 could have put the sail back up. We could have

0197

 1 thrown out an anchor. We could have tried to get

 2 the line undone. But Fleet just immediately

 3 started screaming for help and I was just there

 4 trying to keep the boat from pointing in the wind.

 5 And then the Coast Guard came, fortunately, and

 6 they were incredibly professional as they pulled

 7 up along side of us. They were there with these

 8 lines. And they said -- and Fleet was standing

 9 with the lines, (Do not throw that line. Do not

10 throw that line. We will throw that line. Do not

11 throw that line.̃ Whew, over go the line.

12 But there have been cases like that. There were a

13 couple of other similar type of circumstances he

14 just seemed to kind of go --

15 LOU SMIT: Why did he go up to Atlanta?

16 What was his reason?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: His biggest issue was that we

18 retained attorneys. And he hated that. I don't

19 know why.

20 LOU SMIT: What was his big beef with that?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I remember

22 Priscilla saying, (You don't need attorneys. We're

23 next (INAUDIBLE), we're not going to get

24 attorneys.̃ I think he wanted to speak up. Because

25 by that time the media circus was rolling full

0198

 1 speed ahead. He wanted us to speak out. He wanted

 2 us to -- and he was the one that advocated a

 3 (INAUDIBLE) our interview (INAUDIBLE).

 4 LOU SMIT: Tell me how that kind of came

 5 about. Because that's been something that's been

 6 brought up a few times.

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: You know, I don't remember

 8 exactly. But I remember he was just rabid about

 9 what the media was saying about us and we needed

10 to defend ourselves. And we needed to go on

11 television and --

12 LOU SMIT: Who actually made the arrangements

13 for that?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think I decided to

15 do it. And Bob Westmoreland, who is a friend of

16 the president of CNN, he was around us all that

17 time too, Bob was. And he said well I can call

18 whoever it was, and that was a logical place for

19 us to do it.

20 And so he called the president of CNN. I remember

21 at that time, which was only days after that, that

22 the president of CNN (INAUDIBLE) these people

23 (INAUDIBLE). Do you know this guy, and Rod said,

24 I'd stake my life on it. There's no way he could

25 have done this.

0199

 1 And so the president of CNN kind of set up the

 2 interview. But it was at Fleets insistence. I

 3 remember he was (INAUDIBLE). Once before we really

 4 felt like we were making our own decisions for any

 5 kind of sanity.

 6 But you feel this (INAUDIBLE) kind of coming at

 7 you. And were weren't really aware of it other

 8 than they were at the church. They were literally

 9 at the gravesite, all these guys with big cameras

10 and telephoto lenses. And you start to realize

11 that there's this frenzy going on around you.

12 LOU SMIT: So then what was the purpose

13 of the interview?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think in my mind we

15 had gotten a lot of letters and sympathy cards and

16 just wonderful outpouring of support and I wanted

17 to thank people. There had been a wonderful

18 article in the Atlanta Constitution that said,

19 (Georgia bids goodbye to JonBenet̃ and I was very

20 touched by that.

21 I started to realize that this was touching a lot

22 of people, and I just wanted to thank them. And

23 this pressure that we were getting from Fleet and

24 Priscilla just to speak up for ourselves and

25 defend ourselves. And that, as I remember, it was

0200

 1 Fleet's pounding on that. (INAUDIBLE) very happy.

 2 I mean there was that much pressure on us to do

 3 it.

 4 LOU SMIT: Why did you actually (INAUDIBLE)?

 5 What was it like to have your personal

 6 (INAUDIBLE)? Because I knew initially it said you

 7 were real upset or something about the way things

 8 were going. But what actually prompted you to

 9 (INAUDIBLE)?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, as I said, we came

11 back

12 from Boulder, back from Atlanta to Boulder, with

13 the expressed purpose to coming to help with the

14 investigation. I know it was very upsetting Patsy

15 to come back. (INAUDIBLE) Things are not as you

16 would think they are; you need to be aware of what

17 was going on.

18 Like in April, I think the objective was that it

19 was being used so much against us: that we weren't

20 cooperating with the police; we weren't helping

21 with the investigation; that it was in our minds

22 not all what our intentions were. That we finally,

23 we wanted to do it.

24 And then we came back and I can remember sitting

25 around the table in Bynum's office and people

0201

 1 explaining how it worked. But I was convinced I'd

 2 better listen to people and (INAUDIBLE). But I

 3 didn't. I was growing more and more convinced that

 4 were in, as I say, not only a focus of the

 5 investigation, but the only focus of the

 6 investigation.

 7 So we, frankly, just said, okay, we'll do whatever

 8 you guys tell us to do. (INAUDIBLE). And I think

 9 we were always very clear to them and we were

10 clear what our intentions were. And I think our

11 only position was: we would talk to the police as

12 long as there's a representative (INAUDIBLE)

13 there.

14 And that was always a sticking point. I don't

15 remember exactly why, but we developed a very

16 strong distrust of their motives and objectives

17 earlier on. And I remember that was one of the

18 conditions.

19 And then (INAUDIBLE) we agreed on to do it and we

20 said, okay, let's do it at ten in the morning or

21 whatever time it was. And they said, no, we want

22 you to come in at Friday night at six p.m. I said

23 whew.

24 So these attempts to do it, in our perspective we

25 were met with our good faith effort in return. And

0202

 1 the April thing (INAUDIBLE) we had been so

 2 criticized with this, which is unfair. But let's

 3 get it over with. We're not going to speak out

 4 until. (INAUDIBLE) because we didn't feel that was

 5 right for us to (INAUDIBLE) and talk to the press

 6 or anyone else before we talked to the police.

 7 And so, in our minds, we wanted to help, to do

 8 what we could to help, despite what the risks were

 9 that these guys were telling us about. But all I

10 remember (INAUDIBLE) today, the years go forth. I

11 think we (INAUDIBLE) the district attorney

12 representative. And Patsy spent six hours and I

13 spent three hours or whatever it was.

14 And our plan, and we did, is when it came out, we

15 said, okay, we talked to the police. I don't know

16 how much else we said, but that was the first time

17 we could publicly represent ourselves against this

18 basic avalanche of (INAUDIBLE) to crucify us.

19 MIKE KANE: Let me just verify that.

20 Because I think there was something that I saw in

21 my file, that you had a real hang up with the DA.

22 What was it you were worrying about having the DA?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it wasn't my mind, it

24 was basically what was being recommended. But it

25 did make sense. And that was, that they felt the

0203

 1 police were so biased against us that they wanted

 2 an independent, objective listener in the room so

 3 any information that came out of that room to you

 4 was not presented by a biased speaker.

 5 And all he did was sit there. I don't think he

 6 asked one question.

 7 BRYAN MORGAN: He didn't.

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: They felt that was very

 9 important. That was the only requirement that we

10 had. And the police wouldn't agree to it. I mean

11 there's a sequence of suspicious behavior on

12 (INAUDIBLE) that made us extremely cautious, even

13 though we wanted desperately to find out who

14 killed our daughter and (INAUDIBLE).

15 MIKE KANE: Did you ever feel like you were

16 playing right into that? In other words, just kind

17 of catch 22?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Sure. All we were doing was

19 being pressured. There were media leaks --

20 MIKE KANE: No, I mean it's a catch 22 if

21 you wanted to dispel suspicion and then you do

22 something that just creates more suspicion, like

23 not talk.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: We didn't not talk. We talked for

25 hours on the 26th, we talked for hours on the

0204

 1 27th. We said we'll answer question (INAUDIBLE)

 2 properly. And we made offers to come in as long as

 3 the district attorney was present (INAUDIBLE).

 4 And it sure was frustrating to us. Because we knew

 5 we were getting --

 6 BRYAN MORGAN: I don't know the purpose of

 7 this frankly, but there is a lengthy record of

 8 requests of everything from blood samples to

 9 interviews with privileged personnel like doctors

10 and nurses to a half dozen handwriting samples to

11 (INAUDIBLE). Every single one was granted in that

12 period of time.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably.

14 BRYAN MORGAN: I repeat, I don't understand

15 the point of this questioning, and I'm not trying

16 to act the lawyers argument. But there is some

17 flesh on bones kind of statement that we would

18 cooperate to the extent we could.

19 MIKE KANE: My purpose is that, as I said,

20 in opening to you, these are questions that

21 somebody might ask down the road if we have an

22 intruder sitting in the defense chair.

23 BRYAN MORGAN: Well, I object.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we as the parents of

25 the murdered child wanted to be there and help

0205

 1 them solve the crime. People that we respected

 2 were advising us. And evidence began to grow that

 3 they were right. And we saw no evidence that they

 4 were wrong.

 5 We invited Commander Becker to come to our home.

 6 It was like, okay, let's start this thing fresh.

 7 You come to our home. Let's sit down and have a

 8 cup of coffee, get to know each other. And you

 9 know what the police response back we got was? I'm

10 not going to their home, that would be to their

11 advantage.

12 Well what does that tell you? That would be to

13 their advantage. I mean we're, what are we

14 fighting here or are we trying to solve a crime.

15 So there was just no, not one demonstrable

16 instance of anything that we could put confidence

17 in that we were inviting anything but a lynch mob.

18 MIKE KANE: I just want to clarify that.

19 LOU SMIT: Do you have anything else?

20 MIKE KANE: No, not (INAUDIBLE).

21 LOU SMIT: No, go ahead.

22 MIKE KANE: No, no. Not in this case.

23 LOU SMIT: Okay. I think that's kind of a

24 chronological that kind of gets up to the hearing.

25 Now I would like to go over the specifics. And

0206

 1 this here is academic questions about heating. And

 2 you brought up this that you heard something about

 3 pineapple. Now what have you heard about

 4 pineapple?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we were asked if JonBenet

 6 had eaten any pineapple, because apparently it was

 7 found in her system. I don't know if the police

 8 asked us that or we saw it on television or the

 9 question came up. I don't remember her eating

10 pineapple, I don't remember pineapple at Fleet's

11 or the White's house. It sort of been a very

12 logical hors d'oeuvres. I don't' remember

13 specifically if it was there.

14 I think part of the question was what did she eat

15 when she got home, and I'm sure she didn't because

16 she was absolutely sound asleep. So I don't know

17 nothing about the basis of the question.

18 LOU SMIT: That's why I wanted to show you

19 the picture. I just didn't know what you had heard

20 of this thing. I'm going to show you what's called

21 a picture of 414.

22 This is a photograph that's taken of the dining

23 room table. And it shows various things on the

24 dining room table. Do you see the gingerbread

25 houses? And then you see a bowl on that

0207

 1 (INAUDIBLE)?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

 3 LOU SMIT: What else do you see on there?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I see a glass with what looks

 5 like (INAUDIBLE). Tissues on the glass. A couple

 6 knives.

 7 LOU SMIT: Do you have any idea how that got

 8 on that table?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: It might have been (INAUDIBLE)

10 that's a big bowl.

11 LOU SMIT: I'm going to straighten out the

12 picture so we'll want a close up of everything.

13 This is a photograph of 417. what does that

14 represent there?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's a large spoon, not

16 a teaspoon. It looks like Patsy's good silver. I

17 guess that could be pineapple, I can't tell. But

18 it could be. Some people (INAUDIBLE) pineapple to

19 make it old and there's this teabag in an empty

20 glass. I can't tell, but it looks like there is

21 some milk or something.

22 LOU SMIT: Who do you know would eat

23 pineapple like that? Do you have any idea?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the kids like pineapple,

25 but that's a big bowl and this is a big spoon and

0208

 1 I can't imagine that the kids would have something

 2 like that at any time. Certainly not with iced

 3 tea, I don't think. They don't even drink iced

 4 tea. I think they do not. (INAUDIBLE) yeah.

 5 LOU SMIT: John, I just wanted to kind

 6 of check back with you. Now these obviously are

 7 crime scene photographs.

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

 9 LOU SMIT: And this is the condition that

10 things are found when pictures are taken. We're

11 trying to explain that, even in correlating it

12 with your daughter (INAUDIBLE)?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Could that have been

14 gotten out by someone who was in there that

15 morning, I wonder?

16 LOU SMIT: I don't know. That's a thought.

17 What do you think?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I mean I don't --

19 that's just a huge --

20 LOU SMIT: You mean somebody who had been

21 (INAUDIBLE)?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, the Fernies or the

23 Whites or, there were a lot of people in the house

24 that were -- that would not be like us to leave

25 that. Certainly not leaving the next morning on a

0209

 1 trip, to leave it like that, out.

 2 That's a big bowl, whatever it is, if it's

 3 pineapple.

 4 MIKE KANE: Do you recognize the bowl?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know. I recognize

 6 the spoon, because it's a big serving spoon. It's

 7 not like a teaspoon. And that could be one of our

 8 bowls. We had white bowls like that. Patsy would

 9 recognize it for sure. It looks like our glass.

10 LOU SMIT: Who would drink tea with a teabag

11 in the glass?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Somebody who would drink tea,

13 I guess. I don't know. I don't drink tea. Burke

14 will drink sweet ice tea. I don't remember if

15 JonBenet did, if she did.

16 I mean, even for someone who's there and to get

17 out that big of a bowl and put that much pineapple

18 in it and just leave it. That doesn't make sense.

19 MIKE KANE: That was a serving spoon?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: It's a big serving spoon. I

21 mean don't even have an answer.

22 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE) taken out and put

23 back in the refrigerator. Could that have

24 (INAUDIBLE) where it had been?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible.

0210

 1 MIKE KANE: Any other tea drinkers in the

 2 house?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy drank tea. She likes

 4 sweet ice tea.

 5 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I believe, not much, once

 7 in a while.

 8 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) sweet ice tea, you

 9 can put a tea bag (INAUDIBLE)?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, no. With sweet ice tea

11 you have to make the tea. And I don't know how you

12 do it, but she puts sugar in it or something. It's

13 a southern drink. But, no.

14 I mean, first of all, it was hot tea. You

15 wouldn't it in that kind of a glass, it was weird.

16 That doesn't make sense.

17 LOU SMIT: You see, this is the trouble.

18 That we don't know. We don't know the answer. We

19 just didn't know whether it was like that or

20 (INAUDIBLE) around it.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: I would almost think that

22 (INAUDIBLE) that's Patsy's too. But that would not

23 have been left out by us where it would be for any

24 extended period of time. And that is a huge bowl

25 of pineapple or whatever it is and a big spoon.

0211

 1 LOU SMIT: On the 26th, that was the

 2 morning of the 26th, John, do you remember eating

 3 at that time?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't, but -- No, I don't.

 5 I think there was -- I don't know, I don't

 6 remember. There might have been some coffee made

 7 or something like that. I don't think anybody was

 8 feeling to eat.

 9 LOU SMIT: Where would you keep pineapple?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: If it were opened, it would

11 have been kept in the refrigerator.

12 LOU SMIT: And that's the walk-in one?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. If it were not open,

14 it would be in the pantry. This little (INAUDIBLE)

15 was here with the cans. (INAUDIBLE) next to the

16 cans. I mean it doesn't look like -- the kids

17 wouldn't have gotten that thing and the spoon

18 down. I mean, that's huge for a child's mouth.

19 They would have gotten a little spoon or a fork.

20 They wouldn't have fixed themselves that big a

21 bowl.

22 LOU SMIT: Is this the first time that

23 you knew about this?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: It's the first time I've

25 seen it, yeah.

0212

 1 DAVID WILLIAMS: Can we take a look at the

 2 photographs?

 3 MIKE KANE: While your doing that, could

 4 I ask, you said you had cans of pineapple normally

 5 would be kept in that pantry that's open. Do you

 6 ever by fresh pineapple (INAUDIBLE)?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: We did not, not that I remember.

 8 No. I mean, we had --

 9 LOU SMIT: What other kind of fruit did you

10 have around?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we had apples around;

12 bananas, a lot of bananas. The kids loved

13 bananas. Grapes, green grapes.

14 LOU SMIT: Where would (INAUDIBLE)

15 JOHN RAMSEY: The bananas would be hanging

16 from a little stand that was kept in the kitchen

17 over in this area. The grapes tended to be in the

18 refrigerator. I don't remember specifically.

19 LOU SMIT: Do you know if JonBenet would

20 ever get up in the middle of the night to eat

21 these things?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so. Not -- no.

23 DAVID WILLIAMS: Was that fresh? pineapple?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: No. But, no, that would be,

25 certainly not a glass that with a teabag in it. It

0213

 1 absolutely doesn't make any sense for the kids to

 2 have left that there.

 3 LOU SMIT: Well we can come back to that later. I

 4 do want to talk about that a little bit later. You

 5 got any more questions?

 6 MIKE KANE: No.

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: But, I mean, it's strange.

 8 It doesn't (INAUDIBLE).

 9 LOU SMIT: This is also another picture,

10 picture 416, which also shows the same bowl, only

11 it shows the gingerbread house, and there's some

12 Kleenex on there and things of that nature. So I

13 don't know. Is that the gingerbread house that the

14 children were making?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It looks like it. This

16 was like in -- Patsy would know. I'm not sure why

17 a Kleenex box is there either. That's not normal

18 for a Kleenex box.

19 LOU SMIT: What do you say about that?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I guess it doesn't

21 belong on the kitchen table. I don't know where it

22 came from, but that's now it aught to be.

23 LOU SMIT: Well, I'm sure that Patsy is

24 going to be asked the same question. Maybe she

25 remembers more on this or not. Is it possible that

0214

 1 that could have been left out, maybe because to be

 2 (INAUDIBLE)?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I doubt it very much.

 4 LOU SMIT: Whey do you say that?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we were leaving town

 6 the next morning. We would be gone nearly for a

 7 week and a half. I've never seen a teabag left in

 8 a glass like that in our house. I know we're not

 9 the neatest people in the world, but I don't think

10 we'd have left an open bowl of fruit sitting on

11 the kitchen table.

12 LOU SMIT: All right. I'll get back to this

13 just a little bit later.

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Can I see the (INAUDIBLE).

15 LOU SMIT: Sure. I'd like to talk about

16 the window rail and the broken window that's at

17 the scene. Do you have any other areas you'd like

18 to (INAUDIBLE)? The reason that I want to talk

19 about that is, in your mind there could be a

20 potential point that (INAUDIBLE)? You're not sure

21 that we ran across that with you. Now let's just

22 talk about that a little bit.

23 You say that earlier you had gone in that same

24 window. Now, can you remember when this was or the

25 circumstances surrounding doing that?

0215

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I can't remember

 2 exactly when it was. I've done it maybe twice,

 3 maybe three times during the period of time we

 4 owned the house. It was a way that I could get in

 5 the house if we didn't have a key that was least

 6 expensive to repair. It was one single pane of

 7 non-insulated glass and.

 8 I think that was done one summer I came back late

 9 in the evening. Patsy and the kids were delayed,

10 and for some reason I didn't have a key. I don't

11 know why. But usually if I don't drive my car I

12 take a cab or something to the airport and back,

13 and I don't have a key and the house keys are on

14 the key ring.

15 But that was the time, it was in the summer I had

16 come back from a business trip. I think I had a

17 suit on. It was late. It was like about 11:30 at

18 night. It was dark. It was (INAUDIBLE) Amazingly I

19 took the grill off. I think I probably kicked the

20 window with my foot and then reached in and

21 unlatched the window.

22 LOU SMIT: Were you alone at that time?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

24 LOU SMIT: First of all, now when you

25 drove home, did you drive home when you got in

0216

 1 that late that night?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall specifically.

 3 But I think I took (INAUDIBLE) and it dropped me

 4 off.

 5 LOU SMIT: And then they dropped you off

 6 there at the house.

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 8 LOU SMIT: So you don't have a garage

 9 door opener at that time, is that what you're

10 saying?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you normally have a garage

13 opener?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: In my car. See I have a

15 garage opener I can get in the house because we

16 never lock the door in the garage that goes in the

17 house. And that was 98 percent of the time how I

18 got in the house.

19 LOU SMIT: Where would (INAUDIBLE)?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably the garage, in the

21 garage through that door. And I think I had given

22 my key to John Andrew or somebody. I didn't have

23 it. Very rarely that I use the key to unlock the

24 door into my house because I've always had a

25 garage --

0217

 1 LOU SMIT: You mean it's normal in the car?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

 3 LOU SMIT: Okay. And at that time of night I

 4 assume you didn't want to call a locksmith for

 5 that?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I didn't have any way

 7 to call. (INAUDIBLE) I remember it was late. I

 8 could go to my neighbors.

 9 LOU SMIT: And you say the family was gone?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

11 LOU SMIT: And did you ever keys like to the

12 neighbors or anything?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well The Barnhills had a key.

14 I don't know if know if I remember that at the

15 time. It was late. I'm sure I wouldn't have gone

16 over anyway. But I always wished I would have done

17 is bury one somewhere under a rock or something.

18 One time we had one under a statute. But could

19 also be used by somebody (INAUDIBLE) So we moved

20 it.

21 LOU SMIT: Now, I'm going to show you some

22 photographs, if I can? These photographs I'm

23 showing you here right now -- initially when the

24 police were there during the kidnapping time

25 period, some kind of crime scene techs did come in

0218

 1 and they took pictures and they did some work

 2 inside the house.

 3 But picture number 92 was taken fairly early on.

 4 Can you tell me what area that is of the house?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's the back patio,

 6 looking at the house from the south side. This is

 7 the door into the dining room. This is the door

 8 into the hallway, the back hallway. And this was

 9 early that morning?

10 LOU SMIT: Do you notice anything unusual

11 there or anything out of place?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: There's not a (INAUDIBLE)

13 for one thing. That window looks (INAUDIBLE) maybe

14 it's just a shadow.

15 LOU SMIT: I'm going to show you some

16 more of those photos that (INAUDIBLE) kidnapping

17 period.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: This is one of the kid's

19 toys. (INAUDIBLE).

20 LOU SMIT: Well, I know (INAUDIBLE) I'll

21 show it to you now and then I'll tell you what it

22 is. This here photograph is also of that window

23 area. But these were taken somewhat later. And

24 these are just crime scene photographs also.

25 Now these are photographs 418, 419, 420, 421,

0219

 1 422,423, 424 and 425. I'm going to show you these

 2 and see if, first of all, can you explain to me

 3 how you got into that window, while I'm showing

 4 (INAUDIBLE)?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well you can just lift the

 6 grate out and slide it out, lay it on the ground

 7 and then jump down into the well.

 8 LOU SMIT: And when you slide it out, what

 9 do you mean by sliding it out?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think there was a

11 couple of supports on the side (INAUDIBLE) went

12 here and just lift that up. I didn't lift it up.

13 LOU SMIT: Right, and then straight down.

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I probably lifted it

15 up and just pulled it away from the hole.

16 LOU SMIT: And then did you have any trouble

17 getting in?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

19 LOU SMIT: And how much do you weigh? Right

20 about then?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably about what I do now:

22 195.

23 LOU SMIT: And you're how tall?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Five ten, nine and a half.

25 LOU SMIT: And you say that you went down

0220

 1 in there and you had taken your clothing off?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I had my suit on, so I took

 3 my suit coat off and my pants off so I wouldn't

 4 (INAUDIBLE). I might have taken my shirt off. But

 5 it's not difficult to get in. it would be

 6 difficult to get out; you needed something to step

 7 on. But basically you just open the window and

 8 just let yourself drop down on the ground.

 9 LOU SMIT: Have you ever gotten out that

10 way?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I've (INAUDIBLE) the house.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you know anyone that has?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't.

14 LOU SMIT: So you say you just went down into

15 the window well where you kicked out the window.

16 Then what did you have to do? What's your next

17 step?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Then you had reach in to

19 unlatch the window, and if it's stuck, you just

20 pop it open. I mean, I don't remember if I slid in

21 face forward or a turned around. Probably turned

22 around, turn around backwards and put your needs

23 on the ledge here and let your feet in and then

24 just drop down. That's probably how I would have

25 done it?

0221

 1 LOU SMIT: Now you say that the time that

 2 you went into this window, that was nighttime?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

 4 LOU SMIT: And you say it was about 11:30 at

 5 night? Obviously it would be dark at that time?

 6 What's your recollection of the difficulty of

 7 getting into the house then?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I guess I remember the

 9 unknown harm is when you drop the last foot or two

10 in the basement. Because that basement room is

11 always kind of a mess. You're not quite sure what

12 you're going to land in.

13 Once I was in the basement I could find my way to

14 the door. The light switch is over by the door. So

15 you got to be careful because there's a lot of

16 junk in there.

17 LOU SMIT: But you could make your way

18 around? Would you be able to even see?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I remember being able

20 to see real well, I think. Cause there's not

21 (INAUDIBLE) light in that basement room. So unless

22 there was light left on or something in one of the

23 rooms you wouldn't have been --

24 LOU SMIT: So even if (INAUDIBLE) you know

25 where it was? Where's the light switch at if you

0222

 1 look at the diagram?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right here.

 3 LOU SMIT: So you're pointing just to the

 4 end of the train room table there?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. The thing that always

 6 puzzled me was, when we had the house living room

 7 was all done and we were trying to get it back

 8 together, we kept talking about that we needed to

 9 replace the closet doors that's damaged in the

10 basement. Couldn't fix it. I can remember what

11 closet door was damaged.

12 Apparently I finally found it; Ellis had cut in

13 half. But I think it was either this door or this

14 door. It was a heavy door. Because we had an

15 elevator here and we took it out.

16 LOU SMIT: Right. Right.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: And it was one of those

18 heavy doors. And I was very curious as to what

19 were they talking about the door was damaged, they

20 had to replace it. And I looked at that door in

21 Ellis's office and it was slit. But it didn't look

22 like it was -- I mean my suspicion was, that it

23 was an elevator door that you can open from the

24 outside but I don't think you can open it from the

25 inside. So I was just wondering that if something

0223

 1 got in there and couldn't get out, did they --

 2 LOU SMIT: Push it.

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: -- push and break it open.

 4 It didn't look like that to me. But paneling was

 5 split. But I couldn't tell what was going on

 6 around the latch. But that was very perplexing to

 7 me. Whey was that door damaged? Because it was not

 8 damaged, to my knowledge.

 9 LOU SMIT: Have you run any tests on that

10 to see if it was from the inside or outside or

11 anything?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Ellis has it. Now it's in

13 storage. But that's an item of curiosity.

14 LOU SMIT: And, like anything else, those

15 items can be attached. You know, they got great

16 labs and the labs are free, and all of that stuff

17 can be done. And it would be interesting to see if

18 it was from the inside or the outside.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Because if it was that

20 door, and it was from the inside --

21 LOU SMIT: It may or may not show you

22 something.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

24 LOU SMIT: But at least it would be

25 something that you should look at.

0224

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

 2 LOU SMIT: And has the door fingerprinted

 3 anyway?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know.

 5 BRYAN MORGAN: I don't believe we have. I

 6 think when we discovered it, it was something was

 7 unfamiliar with. We gave Ellis instructions to get

 8 it and preserve it in whatever state it was that

 9 he found it. I don't know exactly when detectives

10 (INAUDIBLE) but that was some time after the house

11 was released to us.

12 LOU SMIT: Right.

13 BRYAN MORGAN: We would be happy to turn

14 over the door who wants to do any kind tests.

15 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE). In fact, that's

16 something that laboratories could do and they got

17 the equipment to do all the fingerprinting stuff

18 on three. Again, if we can speak with him.

19 BRYAN MORGAN: When he got it, then how

20 he tried to preserve it. Sure. But we are happy to

21 make that available.

22 LOU SMIT: Great. Great. But again, that

23 is the window well. And I'm going to show you some

24 photographs of the window well. And again those

25 are photographs number 418 through 425.

0225

 1 MIKE KANE: Can I ask a quick question of

 2 John?

 3 LOU SMIT: Sure, go ahead.

 4 MIKE KANE: You said that this was in the

 5 summer. Can you be more specific (INAUDIBLE). You

 6 said that Patsy probably got delayed?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't remember exactly.

 8 I'm just guessing.

 9 MIKE KANE: When did she usually go up to --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: They went up usually in the

11 first week of June then came back in the last week

12 of August. So it would have been in that

13 timeframe.

14 MIKE KANE: And she always (INAUDIBLE)?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

16 LOU SMIT: I'll start off first with these.

17 These are photographs that were taken on the 30th

18 of December. And this is a series of photographs,

19 like I mentioned 418 through 425.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: I was really (INAUDIBLE) the

21 ivy is under the grate.

22 LOU SMIT: And what does that signify to

23 you?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: That it had been moved fairly

25 recently. I would have expected that the ivy to be

0226

 1 dead. It was (INAUDIBLE) like that

 2 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) because we had seen

 3 that also. And I don't want to mislead you.

 4 Because, obviously all of us have seen that. And

 5 at first we didn't know exactly why that was. But

 6 we think a perhaps an officer may have moved that

 7 grate. So I just wanted you to know that. Because

 8 it's very easy to make the conclusion that it was

 9 done.

10 But we have had some real discussion on this and

11 did find out that an officer had moved that grate.

12 I usually don't tell you whether we know about

13 that. But otherwise that's misleading.

14 But that's the same grate in the same area then?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

16 LOU SMIT: Now you replaced that grate

17 completely with a new grate, is that correct?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think it was replaced,

19 yeah.

20 LOU SMIT: A question I'm dying to ask, does

21 anybody have any photos before the officer thinks

22 he moved the grate?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

24 DAVID WILLIAMS: We can put an end to this

25 if the officer had any recollection.

0227

 1 LOU SMIT: That's something that we're still

 2 looking into.

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Can we find out what it is that

 4 (INAUDIBLE) that the dirt and dust had been

 5 disturbed?

 6 LOU SMIT: If that's your observation, then

 7 it's good.

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: When I was there it was July,

 9 that was six months earlier.

10 LOU SMIT: I would like to just add something

11 though before we move too much further. I would

12 like to do that. (INAUDIBLE) the wind was very

13 strong in that area. Is It possible that the wind

14 could have done this? That it could have blown

15 into the --

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Disturb the --

17 LOU SMIT: Right.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have blown a lot of

19 dust in there. (INAUDIBLE) to clean it off. I

20 mean, there was a nasty window well with spider

21 wells. It was just dirty.

22 LOU SMIT: And for your information also,

23 there is some spider webs also. I just want to

24 make sure that you're not misled.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I appreciate it. I mean these

0228

 1 spots look clean; cleaner than the rest. That's

 2 glass there. A piece of glass there. I don't know

 3 why -- I mean if there's enough wind, it kinds of

 4 kicks things up. I don't know why this would have

 5 been cleaner than the next two. I wouldn't have

 6 been down there for six months. I would have

 7 expected a more uniform (INAUDIBLE).

 8 That's kind of an odd state to be in too.

 9 LOU SMIT: Do you remember anything

10 (INAUDIBLE)?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, maybe the top corner

12 where that little circle thing is.

13 LOU SMIT: And you're sure the last time

14 that you were in there was in the summer?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I'm sure.

16 LOU SMIT: Any questions you'd like to?

17 MIKE KANE: Well I have a lot of questions

18 about the things that we've covered. But I just

19 didn't want interrupt you.

20 LOU SMIT: Go ahead.

21 MIKE KANE: I apologize if I ask any

22 questions that have already been asked. I wanted

23 to ask you about Mike Bynum and the television

24 with Diane Sawyer. Did you have any discussions

25 with him before? Did you know he was going to

0229

 1 come?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I knew he was going

 3 to do it. I think what he was trying -- they were

 4 after, of course, was to have us talk to him. And

 5 I think Mike felt compelled to make it very clear

 6 that he was the one basically who took control of

 7 the situation earlier on and that he had brought

 8 the attorneys in, and it wasn't the Ramseys, as we

 9 had so widely accused of. I think he wanted to

10 make that clear. And that was our venue to do

11 that.

12 MIKE KANE: So then he talked to you before

13 he went?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I knew this was going

15 to happen. But I never saw the program, so I don't

16 know what was said. I don't know if it was good or

17 bad. I heard it that it was good.

18 MIKE KANE: You never saw the program, but

19 did you see a transcript of it?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: No. It's too hard to look at

21 that stuff.

22 MIKE KANE: All right. Okay, this has been

23 kind of been covered it but I'm going to go into

24 it some more. Plane trips, you said that you had

25 headed to the plane that day, that you were going

0230

 1 to fly it out. Did you own it and lease it?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I owned it and leased it to

 3 Mountain Aviation Charter to kind of make it pay

 4 for itself.

 5 MIKE KANE: Like a lease?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 7 MIKE KANE: And was that a King Air?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: A King Air; C90 King Air.

 9 MIKE KANE: And that's a twin-engine turbo?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

11 MIKE: How many seats?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: It will seat,

13 uncomfortably, counting the pilot and six

14 comfortably.

15 MIKE KANE: And were there any other

16 planes that you owned at that time?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: I owned a Bonanza. I still do,

18 which is a small single engine.

19 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE) or a --

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Straight tail.

21 MIKE KANE: Straight tail?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I bought it, maybe a

23 year before. (INAUDIBLE) who is another friend of

24 mine said, this is a great deal; buy it for the

25 summer and then sell it and not lose a dime.

0231

 1 MIKE KANE: Was it here in Boulder?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was in Jeffco that I

 3 bought it.

 4 MIKE KANE: Who's the salesman?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Scott Westfall.

 6 MIKE KANE: Do you know a Grady Parsons?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: I know the name, but I don't

 8 know why?

 9 MIKE KANE: He's your predecessor.

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I think I do. He looked

11 older.

12 MIKE KANE: He had (INAUDIBLE)?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, gosh. I didn't know that.

14 MIKE KANE: Did anybody else fly your

15 aircraft?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Other than the pilots at

17 Mountain Aviation, no.

18 MIKE KANE: And how many pilots flew that

19 King Air?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Probably four; maybe four or

21 five.

22 MIKE KANE: And your Bonanza? Anybody else

23 fly it?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Just my brother occasionally.

25 I know he has recently, but I'm not sure of the

0232

 1 time.

 2 MIKE KANE: When you flew, did you fly as

 3 pilot command or (INAUDIBLE)?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I flew as pilot command and

 5 he was copilot.

 6 MIKE KANE: So you logged in this and

 7 (INAUDIBLE)?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Yeah.

 9 MIKE KANE: And how often did you fly

10 (INAUDIBLE)?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I used it may be 60 to

12 80 hours a year.

13 MIKE KANE: And was that mostly for business

14 trips?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was mostly for pleasure.

16 Once in a while I'd use it for business, but not

17 very often.

18 MIKE KANE: When you went on business trips,

19 did you generally fly commercial?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

21 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

23 MIKE KANE: I noticed there was some

24 reference about that. That it was a citation or a

25 Lear, I don't know which one. Did Lockheed know?

0233

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Lockheed has citations on

 2 the jet, the Centennial, which technically we can

 3 use if we pay for it. (INAUDIBLE) company, but we

 4 can get it.

 5 MIKE KANE: Okay. So those times when you

 6 were in the King Air, it was with your family?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

 8 MIKE KANE: You said that you went down

 9 the say before, I guess it was Christmas day, you

10 went down to prepare. What was your reasons to

11 cleaning?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean I spend more time on

13 the airplane on the ground than I do in the air. I

14 like to keep it clean and polished. And part of it

15 is just I like airplanes. It's fun to be around

16 them. And part of it is, if it's clean then you

17 know if there's a problem, because you can see it

18 right away. If there's an oil leak or a fuel leak.

19 I just like it to look -- if it looks right, it is

20 right. Plus Melinda's, who is my (INAUDIBLE)

21 fiancTe, who's going to be with us, and I wanted

22 the airplane to look nice. Make her feel

23 comfortable. I just like it to be clean.

24 So I spent some time cleaning. I cleaned the

25 wheels; I remember that being dirty. Just getting

0234

 1 ready for a big trip.

 2 MIKE KANE: And what was your family while

 3 you were doing this?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy was home. I guess

 5 the kids were playing. They were basically at

 6 home.

 7 MIKE KANE: Other than going to the Whites,

 8 did you have any plans for Christmas day?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

10 MIKE KANE: When you went to the airport,

11 Jeffco, did you usually drive?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

13 MIKE KANE: You have a place to park there?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I park near Steven's

15 Aviation, yeah.

16 MIKE KANE: How about when you flew

17 commercially?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: I would quite often take a

19 limo. Because it was no more expensive than a

20 taxicab and a lot more comfortable. It was just a

21 long drive out there and it was just easier than

22 driving and parking.

23 MIKE KANE: When you say a limo, when I

24 think of limo I think of (INAUDIBLE) pile in.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: No, this was like a --

0235

 1 MIKE KANE: Limousine.

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Sometimes they would

 3 pull up in these big.

 4 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I mean it was a

 6 limousine service and we use to use it like if we

 7 had customers that came in town we'd have them

 8 sometimes.

 9 MIKE KANE: A Boulder service or a Denver --

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was placed in

11 Denver. Admiral Limousine.

12 MIKE KANE: Admiral?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

14 MIKE KANE: On the trip to Charlevoix --

15 is that how you pronounce it? Charlevoix?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

17 MIKE KANE: So you find the Kind Air. Did

18 you normally have a copilot?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I normally took a pilot with

20 me.

21 MIKE KANE: And was there any reason than

22 obviously you're (INAUDIBLE)?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) safety. I wasn't

24 terribly (INAUDIBLE) I didn't fly every week. I

25 just felt safer, and it wasn't a big expense to

0236

 1 take a pilot. Mark Archuleta normally flew with

 2 me. He was a friend. He was nice to have around.

 3 We took him to Charlevoix I always took some work

 4 up there, so it was --

 5 MIKE KANE: That's what I want to ask you?

 6 What would he do when you --

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: He stayed with us in the house.

 8 If we had work to do, he'd pitch in. If we wanted

 9 a babysitter, he'd watch the kids. He was great.

10 MIKE KANE: And how long were you intending

11 to stay in Charlevoix?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: When it comes to the days, I

13 don't remember. I believe we were leaving for this

14 Big Red Boat thing on Saturday morning, and we

15 were planning to come back on Friday from

16 Charlevoix.

17 MIKE KANE: Okay.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: and I think the 26th was

19 Tuesday or Wednesday. I don't remember.

20 LOU SMIT: Maybe we should look at a

21 calendar.

22 MIKE KANE: Yeah.

23 BRYAN MORGAN: There are records of the

24 Big Red Boat reservations.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: We had bought and paid for

0237

 1 the tickets.

 2 LOU SMIT: We'll nail it down.

 3 BRYAN MORGAN: The 26th was a Thursday.

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Thursday.

 5 MIKE KANE: So Wednesday was Christmas.

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well that doesn't make sense,

 7 then. Let's see. So the 26th was Thursday, so we

 8 would have gone on Thursday morning. I don't think

 9 we were going to stay one night. I'd have to look

10 and say when the Big Red Boat --

11 MIKE KANE: I guess Patsy's birthday was on

12 the --

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Her birthday was on the 29th.

14 I thought we were going to be there already. I

15 don't remember. But we can figure it out.

16 MIKE KANE: So you were going to fly back

17 to Jeffco?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

19 MIKE KANE: The day before you went to --

20 I guess you had to go to Florida to get there?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, we had to go to Orlando

22 to take a bus, from Orlando to Cape Canaveral and

23 take a bus.

24 MIKE KANE: So you would fly back in the

25 day before, fly out, I think you said TWA?

0238

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 2 MIKE KANE: And you're leaving on the boat

 3 that day or did you fly down and then you would

 4 leave the next day?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I think we were doing

 6 this boom, boom, boom. Then we were going to be on

 7 the boat that night.

 8 MIKE KANE: And how long a trip was that

 9 going to be?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: It was maybe four days. It

11 was over through New Year's Eve. I don't know if

12 we were came back New Year's day or the next day,

13 but it was a four-day trip.

14 MIKE KANE: And then would you come straight

15 back here?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. (INAUDIBLE).

17 MIKE KANE: That's all I have.

18 LOU SMIT: I just have one more window.

19 MIKE KANE: I mean, I have other areas.

20 LOU SMIT: What I'm going to show is

21 photograph number 252. In fact, I'll maybe hold it

22 up for the camera, and I'll ask Mr. Ramsey, what

23 does that show?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it shows the window

25 open and the suitcase. But the suitcase, when I

0239

 1 first saw it, the suitcase was flat up against the

 2 wall and for some reason I felt like that window

 3 opened to the other side.

 4 LOU SMIT: Any other observations that you

 5 (INAUDIBLE)?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I realize it

 7 looks like just kind of marks on the wall, but I

 8 can't --

 9 LOU SMIT: On the diagram, John, can you

10 show us where that is?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: We're here.

12 LOU SMIT: Now is that the area that you

13 observed earlier on the 26th and then a little bit

14 later with Fleet White?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

16 LOU SMIT: Does that look similar to that?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Except for when I was there

18 the suitcase was flat up against the wall.

19 MIKE KANE: When you say flat up against the

20 wall, how do you mean?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: It was standing up like this,

22 only it the light surface was against the wall.

23 LOU SMIT: You said you moved it? Did you

24 mention that?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I moved it a bit just to see

0240

 1 if there was glass. It's funny how you remember

 2 things. I swear that window opened from the other

 3 side. I guess other than that, I can't see

 4 anything.

 5 LOU SMIT: Now is this the suitcase you

 6 described as John Andrew's suitcase?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it was -- I mean, it

 8 looks like it. It looks a little darker but I

 9 think it's cause the room is darker. It was like a

10 hard case, a Samsonite suitcase that I think, I

11 think, John Andrew when he came to college, he

12 brought all his stuff out and left it at our

13 house.

14 LOU SMIT: Now you said that you picked up

15 pieces of glass.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

17 LOU SMIT: A few little pieces.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

19 LOU SMIT: And did you say you put them on

20 the window well or on the suitcase or do you

21 remember?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember for sure.

23 There wasn't enough there for me to be convinced

24 that the window was broken that morning. I was

25 assuming that it had been broken by me and it

0241

 1 hadn't really been fixed.

 2 LOU SMIT: And I'm just going to show you

 3 another photograph here. I want to talk to you

 4 again a little bit, if I can, about the

 5 flashlight. Okay?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

 7 LOU SMIT: You said you kept in a drawer

 8 where? Can you point out to that?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, normally it was just

10 in a drawer in this little bar area in the

11 hallway.

12 LOU SMIT: On another interview, were you

13 shown a picture of a flashlight?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: I was shown a picture of a

15 scarf and a picture in which there was a

16 flashlight in the background, and not just of a

17 flashlight.

18 LOU SMIT: Okay. I'm going to show you a

19 photograph that I've got out of labeled Book Four.

20 And I'll show it to the camera. And I'd like it,

21 if you can, to tell me what you see there?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it looks like a MAG

23 like kind of flashlight there. But that looks like

24 maybe a plane or (INAUDIBLE) or something.

25 LOU SMIT: Does that look like flashlight

0242

 1 that you have or does --

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, it could be. It

 3 looks a little bigger than the one I had. But it

 4 could have been the same one.

 5 LOU SMIT: Were you ever shown the

 6 flashlight?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

 8 LOU SMIT: Where does that flashlight

 9 appear to be here?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's on the kitchen

11 counter.

12 LOU SMIT: Can you point on the diagram

13 where that is?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: It's right here. (INAUDIBLE)

15 is right there.

16 LOU SMIT: Do you have any idea how it got

17 there?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

19 LOU SMIT: Did you put it there?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not that I recall.

21 LOU SMIT: Did you use a flashlight at all

22 that morning to look for JonBenet?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so. There was

24 no reason to turn the lights on. I wouldn't even

25 bet that our flashlight worked. If I were to bet,

0243

 1 I'll bet it wouldn't work. We just didn't keep up

 2 with that.

 3 LOU SMIT: When you had that flashlight,

 4 did you ever put batteries in it? Do you remember?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: I might have once. Certainly

 6 probably initially. We have a flashlight in the

 7 car also, but it's a smaller thing.

 8 LOU SMIT: Was that a MAG light?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was a smaller one.

10 You've got to show this to John Andrew. He might

11 remember because he bought it for me.

12 LOU SMIT: Do you know when he got it for

13 you?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: No. It was like a father's

15 day or birthday or Christmas present. It may have

16 been a year or two before. And it looks kind of

17 big. But it could have been the same one.

18 LOU SMIT: I'm going to show you another

19 photograph now. And this here is, it came off the

20 video camera. And I do have a larger picture of

21 this. And perhaps you can answer the question and

22 perhaps and perhaps you can't.

23 I would like you to take a look at this

24 photograph. And, again, this one is not numbered.

25 It's just a Sony video print. And I would like to

0244

 1 ask you what that appears to you? And, again, if

 2 you don't know what it is, that's fine. And if you

 3 do, that's fine. It's not a very good picture.

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like a bag with a

 5 plastic container or something in it with a point

 6 or two.

 7 LOU SMIT: I just don't recall if you had

 8 ever seen that item before.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't even tell where it's

10 at for sure. It's a Tupperware cup, but I don't

11 know what it is.

12 LOU SMIT: I'll hold that up to the camera.

13 Okay. This here that I'm going to show you now,

14 John, during the kidnap phase of this there was

15 some photographs taken, and I'm sure this is

16 probably the very first time you've been shown

17 many photographs (INAUDIBLE).

18 And we're doing this for a couple of reasons. And

19 the police are right, you shouldn't show the

20 photographs in an ongoing investigation. But you

21 can show photographs, and I feel that they should

22 be shown because I would like to know. You know

23 your house better than anyone. These are

24 photographs that were taken at a time you hadn't

25 even found JonBenet's body yet.

0245

 1 We can't spend a whole great length of time on

 2 this, but I would like to spend some time. And I'd

 3 like you to just look at the photographs and see

 4 if you can see anything that's out of place that

 5 don't belong there. Something that may have been

 6 taken that's missing. Or something that the killer

 7 may have left in the house.

 8 A lot of time they'll take things out, but you

 9 just don't remember what it is because you haven't

10 taken the photographs, you don't know that.

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

12 LOU SMIT: And that's why, I know my others

13 have discussed this, we decided to show

14 photographs of the scene at this time. And I've

15 got too let you know that the police department

16 did go along with this. So they're not -- I know

17 that there's hard feelings on this. I just want to

18 let you know that.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, as I said earlier, if

20 we're wrong, we owe a lot of apologies.

21 LOU SMIT: I know. I know. Well, I'm just

22 going to -- Mr. Morgan, you can look at it as

23 well. If you see something that you don't

24 understand or something that looks out of place,

25 we'll take notes of this.

0246

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: That is.

 2 LOU SMIT: He's pointing to photograph two

 3 (INAUDIBLE).

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: This photograph two, is

 5 (INAUDIBLE) her bed. I don't know where her pillow

 6 is. I mean the pillow on her bed.

 7 MIKE KANE: Excuse me. I think we were

 8 just wondering if were going to five? Is that the

 9 plan.

10 LOU SMIT: Why don't we just stop for

11 tonight if that's a --

12 MIKE KANE: Because we're done.

13 LOU SMIT: Why don't we just stop right

14 here and we'll show these in the morning. We'll go

15 over these tomorrow.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I guess the one thing is,

17 where's the pillow.

18 DAVID WILLIAMS: What time tomorrow?

19 LOU SMIT: Does nine o'clock tomorrow

20 sound okay?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.

22

23

24

25

0259

 1 _________________________________________________

 2

 3 IN THE MATTER OF:

 4

 5

 6 INTERVIEW WITH JOHN RAMSEY

 7

 8 _________________________________________________

 9

10

11 TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW

12

13 VOLUME 2 OF 4

14 PAGES 259 - 432

15

16

17

18

19 JUNE 24, 1998

20

21

22

23

24

25

0260

 1

 2 FOR JOHN RAMSEY'S INTERVIEW,

 3 THE FOLLOWING ARE PRESENT

 4

 5

 6

 7 LOU SMIT

 8 MIKE KANE

 9 BRYAN MORGAN

10 DAVID WILLIAMS

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

0261

 1 LOU SMIT: Okay. For the purposes of the tape,

 2 today is Wednesday the 24th of June, 1998, and

 3 it's just about a minute after nine in the

 4 morning. Present in the room, and we'll just do

 5 it by voice again. I'm Lou Smit, John Ramsey,

 6 Bryan Morgan, David Williams and Mike Kane.

 7 We left off yesterday and we were looking at

 8 some photos. And I'm just going to change things

 9 a little bit. We're still going to look at the

10 photos. And I'd just like to ask you John, do you

11 the (INAUDIBLE) Entrepreneurial magazine that they

12 have? You were both, I guess, (INAUDIBLE) of the

13 years?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes. It wasn't quite that

15 good.

16 LOU SMIT: Okay. Tell me a little bit

17 about that?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: It's free, right?

19 LOU SMIT: Yes.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, it was free. It's a

21 offshoot of the Boulder Chamber of Commerce that

22 focuses on entrepreneurs in business and privately

23 owned businesses and (INAUDIBLE). And one year I

24 was, I think, was going to be awarded Entrepreneur

25 of the station or something like that.

0262

 1 And as part of that, we gave tours of our business

 2 to anybody who wanted to come in. And we spoke to

 3 a group. We told them about the business, what

 4 made us successful, what were the issues and just

 5 kind of a --

 6 I think that the program is to encourage

 7 entrepreneurs in business development. And so we

 8 did that. I think it was in '95. I don't remember.

 9 But we had there was a day when Axis (INAUDIBLE)

10 was open to the public and we had that in the

11 conference room and people came in and we talked

12 to them for an hour.

13 We got the award and it was real quick. Twenty

14 seconds, thank you.

15 LOU SMIT: Do you remember who would have

16 been present at during that time. If it wasn't a

17 large group of people?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: In the room? In the conference?

19 LOU SMIT: Yeah.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: You know what, I don't.

21 Because

22 most of them I didn't know. There was one lady who

23 approached me afterwards who was in the public

24 relations business or advertising business, and

25 she acted like, I really wanted to come and learn

0263

 1 about the business.

 2 So she gave me her business card. (INAUDIBLE)

 3 doing a job interview; solicitation. And she

 4 popped up again later. She was a little bit of

 5 an odd duck, I thought. I really couldn't tell

 6 you who she was.

 7 And other than that, nobody really stood out in

 8 my mind.

 9 LOU SMIT: Were you competing with

10 anybody (INAUDIBLE)?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: For that? No, it was given

12 to three, four or five people. And there wasn't

13 any competition.

14 LOU SMIT: What I have here is a photograph

15 here that's labeled 23-12, and this for the

16 camera. It's a photograph of an entrepreneurial

17 magazine, and it was found at the scene. And it's

18 something that kind of caught our attention from

19 the standpoint that there is writing on this. Now

20 take a look at that.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: (WHISTLE). That's weird.

22 LOU SMIT: Why do you say that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's got Ray. It's

24 got "no, no, no" written on the three faces, one

25 of whom is the guy from Corporate Express, I

0264

 1 think. What does it say? "Heart" "Two Hearts."

 2 Where was this found?

 3 LOU SMIT: It was found in the house. I'm

 4 not sure of the exact location. It's a piece of

 5 evidence that was taken that morning.

 6 DAVID WILLIAMS: I'm sorry, I misunderstood.

 7 Did you say it was found in the house?

 8 LOU SMIT: In the Ramsey's house.

 9 DAVID WILLIAMS: Okay.

10 LOU SMIT: What do you see in that picture,

11 John, that seems like it -- have you ever seen

12 that article before?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I don't think I ever had.

14 LOU SMIT: Can you describe the writing on it?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like --

16 LOU SMIT: I can get a bigger copy of that.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: It's weird.

18 LOU SMIT: It was in a folder of some kind.

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know. I mean,

20 I didn't, I'm not. This was a very nice event and

21 a nice award. But it wasn't a big deal for me. And

22 I don't even know if we saved any of this stuff.

23 It was a nice thing. But that is bizarre.

24 It shows a heart and I can't quite figure out what

25 that is across the face.

0265

 1 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) identify any

 2 one of those as your picture.

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I think that's my picture,

 4 but I can't --

 5 LOU SMIT: But it's written on your picture,

 6 is that correct?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, yeah, it looks like

 8 it's my picture.

 9 LOU SMIT: Could Patsy or would JonBenet

10 would have written that?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

12 LOU SMIT: Are you sure?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely. That is very

14 strange.

15 LOU SMIT: Well the reason why it has come

16 to our attention, JonBenet, did you ever read or

17 hear anything about her in the autopsy report?

18 That she had a heart on her hand?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I heard that just recently.

20 LOU SMIT: And the heart was in red ink? I

21 don't know what that means. You got any thoughts

22 on that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: My thoughts, after I thought

24 about it was, she wouldn't have drawn on herself

25 like that.

0266

 1 LOU SMIT: Have you ever seen her draw

 2 on herself?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, they get stuff on their

 4 hands. But I don't ever remember her drawing on

 5 herself. I mean, certainly, it was Christmas, she

 6 was dressed up. She was clean, she was getting at

 7 the age where she started to notice what she wore,

 8 and she wanted to look real nice.

 9 Anyway, after I heard that I thought about that,

10 and she wouldn't have written on her hand like

11 that.

12 LOU SMIT: You say that you played with

13 her at the Whites.

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

15 LOU SMIT: And that you made these little

16 jewelry things. Do you think you were in close

17 proximity with her where you would have noticed

18 that?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely. I mean we sat on

20 the floor and made these little -- we took little

21 strips of paper and we rolled them up on a little

22 axle, (INAUDIBLE) beads, paper that you glue, and

23 they had a holder, and the idea was you make a

24 bunch of them and put them on a string and you got

25 a necklace. And we sat and made, I don't know,

0267

 1 half a dozen. And she would cut them out and then

 2 I would roll them up for her.

 3 If that ties, somehow that ties to that, I don't

 4 know. I don't believe it, no. I do not believe

 5 that she would draw a little heart on her hand

 6 in the same kind of ink.

 7 LOU SMIT: And we don't know that, and they

 8 don't know that.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: That has got to be weird.

10 LOU SMIT: Well it's just evidence that

11 was

12 taken right off the bat. It's just that it's out

13 of place and this article and the thought little

14 girl having a heart on her hand.

15 Now what we have to try to figure out is, first of

16 all, where did that come from?

17 MIKE KANE: Excuse me. Was it in a newspaper?

18 LOU SMIT: An article in the newspaper. And

19 we wondered who wrote that article. First of all,

20 they're going to ask if you know the existence of

21 it. Then if you knew who may have written.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recognize this article.

23 All I remember was they had me put out a glossy

24 brochure that advertise the whole event. And the

25 picture was in it. I guess that only (INAUDIBLE).

0268

 1 LOU SMIT: And then again, if we wanted

 2 to talk about the heart on JonBenet's hand. People

 3 that may have been there that night at the Whites

 4 may have seen that heart.

 5 Did she say anything about a heart? There as some

 6 mention, I think, of a secret Santa Claus. We

 7 don't know that. It's just that that's why it's

 8 good for us to sit down with you, because you know

 9 your daughter better than -- and so does your

10 wife.

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

12 LOU SMIT: And if we can sit down and

13 talk about these things, how are we going to know

14 the answers. So it's a question we have all

15 because that exists.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Do you know where that was

17 found in the house?

18 LOU SMIT: I will find that out specifically.

19 This was the piece of evidence was found in --

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, that is very bizarre.

21 LOU SMIT: Also, another question. Have

22 you ever seen pictures of your daughter in the

23 basement of your residence?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: At any time, you mean?

25 LOU SMIT: At any point.

0269

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Of our house?

 2 LOU SMIT: Is it possible they could be

 3 down there?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, pictures of her?

 5 LOU SMIT: Yeah, pictures of her.

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: It's unlikely. We tend to

 7 keep

 8 all our photographs in a drawer in a particular

 9 study. What we call the study. There were some

10 small pictures that were down there that we just

11 didn't have a place for, but (INAUDIBLE).

12 LOU SMIT: Would they have been pictures

13 of her

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not of her, I wouldn't think.

15 I only think there were a couple pictures down

16 there of a flower pot or something that we didn't

17 want in the house, so they just ended up in the

18 basement. But I don't know of any pictures of her

19 in the basement.

20 LOU SMIT: I'll try to sign specifically

21 today where that was found. I had an idea where it

22 was found, but I don't want to say it because I'm

23 not sure and I'd rather (INAUDIBLE).

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Could you tell us, when

25 you've

0270

 1 seen the larger photograph, could you see what

 2 this scrawling is?

 3 LOU SMIT: I haven't been able to make

 4 that out as yet. It's kind of a scrawl.

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: And I see it's inside like

 6 a magazine?

 7 LOU SMIT: Right. Well, it's in a folder

 8 of some kind. You know like a folder that would

 9 include (INAUDIBLE) books. It was just a curious

10 thing with us.

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I'm extremely --

12 LOU SMIT: But you said that JonBenet

13 didn't

14 write on her hands?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember her doing

16 that.

17 LOU SMIT: Do you remember washing her

18 hands or cleaning up her -- as the Whites are

19 cleaning up before or anything of that nature?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: She was pretty good about

21 cleanliness. She always took a bath (INAUDIBLE)

22 daily, I think. I think she was getting to paying

23 attention to her grooming. I don't specifically

24 remember her washing her hands.

25 LOU SMIT: But could you specifically

0271

 1 tell

 2 us of a time --

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Where she washed her hands?

 4 In fact, Patsy was always after the kids to wash

 5 their hands before dinner when they came in from

 6 playing. So she would know.

 7 LOU SMIT: Okay. Because that is important

 8 that we know that.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: But I don't think she would

10 have drawn a heart on her hand. The trouble with

11 that piece of information, which is very bizarre.

12 Something is amiss there.

13 LOU SMIT: Okay. So we can investigate

14 that

15 there.

16 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)

17 JOHN RAMSEY: The person who did this

18 obviously (INAUDIBLE) clues to tantalize us. And

19 that's just another one (INAUDIBLE).

20 LOU SMIT: Do you have any red paint in

21 the house or would there be a marker like that?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, we probably do. We had

23 pencils and magic markers all over the place.

24 LOU SMIT: Okay. we'll get off that subject

25 for just a little while, may be I'll come back to

0272

 1 it later. I'm going to just touch a little bit on

 2 presents, okay?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

 4 LOU SMIT: And I wanted to do that and

 5 kind

 6 of lead into various photographs, okay? I've got

 7 photographs of the wine cellar. And these were

 8 taken during the course of the crime scene

 9 investigation. And it shows various presents in

10 the wine cellar. And I just had a couple questions

11 on that.

12 It's 263, 264, 265, 266, 267 -- I'm sorry. We'll

13 eliminate those 266, 267 and 268. we'll just

14 concentrate on the first three. And we'll just

15 show that to the camera and that will make up

16 somewhat of an image. Do you have any comments

17 about that, or does anything that looks out of

18 place? Because you're the one that knows basically

19 your house.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy had gotten a bunch

21 of gifts at FAO Swartz up in New York in early

22 December, some of which were for them were for

23 Burke's birthday, which was in January. She didn't

24 know they were in the closet exactly,

25 But the cigar box -- I had some cigars that I kept

0273

 1 in the basement because it was kind of humid. And

 2 that looks like (INAUDIBLE) like they where the

 3 tobacco (INAUDIBLE).

 4 LOU SMIT: And you (INAUDIBLE)?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, at least Monte Christo's

 6 were there.

 7 LOU SMIT: Can you remember if it was a full

 8 box (INAUDIBLE) cigars?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: I had taken two out, so

10 it should have been reasonably full. I can't quite

11 tell. It's like it's upside down, maybe. Or dumped

12 over.

13 LOU SMIT: You notice how the packages seem

14 to be partially opened. Can you explain this?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I can't.

16 LOU SMIT: So Patsy had gone there and

17 just kind looked to see what was (INAUDBILE)?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible. (INAUDIBLE) I mean,

19 you can figure out what's in them. The cigar box

20 was sitting on a paint can, or something like

21 that. And I believe it shouldn't have.

22 LOU SMIT: So it wasn't in the place

23 where it had been. It's not on the floor?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: And if I interpret the picture,

25 it's looks like it's kind of almost upside down on

0274

 1 the floor.

 2 LOU SMIT: And that's not where you remember

 3 it being?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't notice any of the

 5 stuff that was in the room. I was surprised I

 6 didn't. all I saw was JonBenet.

 7 When I put the cigar box in that room, the reason

 8 that I set it down here, over here on a paint can

 9 or something, and I just stuck it down there

10 because it was humid.

11 LOU SMIT: So it was on a paint can?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: It was, yeah.

13 LOU SMIT: If you want to look at these,

14 just the photographs on this side.

15 MIKE KANE: How often did you smoke a cigar?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I couldn't smoke in the house.

17 And JonBenet would actually get after me if I

18 smoked or drank a beer. So the only time I would

19 smoke a cigar is if I drove to the airport or

20 something like that. So, once or twice a week,

21 maybe.

22 MIKE KANE: Those cigars I see are to be

23 Cuban, you must have gotten them out of the

24 country?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

0275

 1 MIKE: Where did you get them from?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I used to go to Europe two

 3 or three times a year.

 4 MIKE KANE: So you sneaked them back through

 5 Customs?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

 7 MIKE KANE: I'm a former Fed.

 8 LOU SMIT: Okay. This here is a photograph.

 9 (INAUDIBLE) you golf clubs, okay? Now, you're a

10 golfer, I assume?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: I can claim that.

12 LOU SMIT: Now this is a -- just take a

13 look at this. This is actually a photograph of

14 golf clubs. It's located down near the wine cellar

15 in the basement. And I just wanted you to take a

16 look and see if you see anything in regards to

17 that that seems out of place, or maybe if any

18 clothes are missing there?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't see anything that

20 looks odd. Looks like there's two woods in the

21 bag. I think I have three and I can't really tell

22 if there's three or not. There's a putter, eight

23 irons, seven or eight. (INAUDIBLE) I don't see,

24 no.

25 LOU SMIT: By the way, that's photograph

0276

 1 number 374. And that photograph was taken during

 2 the crime scene investigation after the search

 3 warrant was obtained. So that was after.

 4 Now I have photographs 72 and 71. And these are

 5 photographs taken during what we can describe as

 6 the kidnapping phase, when the crime scene techs

 7 were there. And that's before the body was found.

 8 And I wanted to show you this. This was taken

 9 earlier that morning. And I want you to take a

10 look at these photos and do you see anything out

11 of place and anything which would draw your

12 attention, or if anything is missing that you can

13 remember?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's obviously been

15 moved around some. This bag has been moved, looks

16 like.

17 MIKE KANE: Which one are you referring to?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: A purple bag with my name on

19 it.

20 MIKE KANE: From where to where?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it looks like it's been

22 moved down off the pile, because it's usually

23 here. This laundry basket doesn't show in here.

24 LOU SMIT: So it looks like something has

25 been moved between the time this picture was taken

0277

 1 and this picture was taken?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like this cane

 3 has been moved. It's hard to tell from the

 4 picture.

 5 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE)

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like those little

 7 marks

 8 are right on the heel in the back hallway.

 9 LOU SMIT: I wanted to direct your attention,

10 if you could, John. This photograph 71, and

11 especially in the entryways there and into the

12 various rooms. Now this must have been taken

13 fairly early on the morning of the 26th.

14 Can you describe what you see there? Is there

15 anything out of place or is there anything

16 different from the way you remember it. Because

17 you said you went down into that area.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: What is difference is, I

19 think that the door is blocked by this drum table.

20 Here's the chair I said was brought to the door.

21 And it's not. I moved the chair to get into the

22 door.

23 If this was taken before I was down there -- well

24 I put it back. When I went down there, that chair

25 was kind of blocking that entrance right there.

0278

 1 And there was something else on the other side,

 2 whatever it was. But all I had to do was move that

 3 chair, then I walked into the room.

 4 LOU SMIT: That's the first time down?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. In this picture here,

 6 I would have had to move that drum table and the

 7 Easter basket in that room. So that's different.

 8 LOU SMIT: So you say that that's been moved.

 9 Which way would you say that's been moved?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember the Easter

11 baskets there at all. But it would have had to

12 have been moved. The drum table was over, and the

13 chair was also blocking the door.

14 LOU SMIT: So do you think that the chair

15 would block the door and nobody would have gotten

16 in there without moving it?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Correct.

18 LOU SMIT: In other words, let's say

19 that the intruder goes into the training room,

20 gets out, let's say, that window?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

22 LOU SMIT: How in effect would he get

23 that chair to block that door, if that is the

24 case, is what I'm saying?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. All I'm saying

0279

 1 is, that is different than when I went down there.

 2 LOU SMIT: Okay, let's say that you go down

 3 there?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm. All I want to show

 5 is that that chair was kind of sitting right in

 6 here, and there was something else here. I don't

 7 know what it was. It could have been that

 8 (INAUDIBLE).

 9 LOU SMIT: You go down, that's what you see?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I go down, I say, ooh, that door

11 is blocked. I move the chair and went in the room.

12 LOU SMIT: So you couldn't have gotten in

13 without moving the chair?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Correct.

15 LOU SMIT: And the door was opened or closed?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: It was opened.

17 LOU SMIT: The door was opened?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: correct.

19 LOU SMIT: Okay.

20 JOHN RAMSEY: In that picture, it looks like

21 -- I came in on this side of the door (INAUDIBLE)

22 and would have had to remove that drum table and

23 the Easter basket.

24 MIKE KANE: Which side are you talking about?

25 The inner side or the lock side?

0280

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: If I had the door open it

 2 must be the lock side. That chair was right there

 3 when I went down there, on the lock sided of the

 4 door.

 5 MIKE KANE: On the opposite the hinges.

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. And I moved it and

 7 entered the room. And in that picture --

 8 LOU SMIT: And you don't know if you were

 9 the first one down there?

10 JOHN RAMSEY: I thought I -- Well the police,

11 they probably went through the house a bit. I

12 don't know where they went. I heard later that

13 Fleet White claimed he went through the basement

14 alone. I don't know if that was before or after I

15 did alone.

16 LOU SMIT: That's why we're trying to

17 determine your time. If you can get that down.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I wish I can tell

19 you precisely, but it had to be -- you see I think

20 when the first uniformed officer came, French, he

21 very quickly said, I want all you people in the

22 room, and then people started showing in this

23 room, which was the solarium where he talked, is

24 the solarium.

25 And then some other officers came and I my

0281

 1 impression at that time was that they did a

 2 cursory check of the house. One of the uniformed

 3 house went through the house. That had been fairly

 4 early.

 5 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: We don't. I think it's between

 7 6:00 and 6:30. So that person should have been the

 8 first one to go through the house.

 9 I went in the basement, certainly before we were

10 getting ready for the call. (INAUDIBLE) until

11 eight, so that would have been eight o'clock. So

12 we were preparing for that. By 7:30, let's say,

13 and Fleet and I were talking about what we were

14 going to say.

15 LOU SMIT: Would that have been before

16 then or after?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: It would have been before

18 then I believe.

19 LOU SMIT: So it was before eight o'clock?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: That's right. (INAUDIBLE) I'm

21 trying to reconstruct in it my mind.

22 LOU SMIT: But when you went to the train

23 room, you had move these things in order to get

24 into the train room?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I had to move the chair.

0282

 1 LOU SMIT: The thing I'm trying to figure

 2 out in my mind then is, if an intruder went

 3 through the door, he'd almost have to pull the

 4 chair behind him.

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. That's correct.

 6

 7 LOU SMIT: Because that would have been

 8 his exit?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

10 LOU SMIT: Okay.

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was blocked. He'd

12 have to move something to get into the room.

13 LOU SMIT: And he would have had to move

14 it back, if he was in there trying to get out, is

15 that correct?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

17 LOU SMIT: So that's not very logical as

18 far as --

19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it is. I mean if this

20 person is that bizarrely clever to have not left

21 any good evidence, but left all these little funny

22 little clues around, they certain are clever

23 enough to pull the chair back when they left.

24 LOU SMIT: But it was your impression that

25 that chair was blocking that door?

0283

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. The chair and something

 2 else. But it certainly wasn't the Easter baskets.

 3 They were sitting there on the drum table. So I

 4 never touched them. I just moved the chair and

 5 went in.

 6 LOU SMIT: And that's one of the things

 7 that we have to really get clear, because the

 8 photographs were taken fairly early that morning.

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: But I think the question is,

10 would a police officer have done that? Probably

11 not. Would Fleet White have done that? I don't

12 know. Just looking at this picture, it doesn't

13 appear to me that that chair had anything to do

14 with the door. But, you know, geez, I wish I could

15 remember. But I don't remember moving that. I

16 really don't. all I remember is kind of moving the

17 chair and walking in.

18 LOU SMIT: And sometimes the photograph

19 perspective is a little bit different. You don't

20 really have the perspective on the photograph. But

21 that's why we just wanted to clarify that. In

22 effect, it's just a question that I had.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: So this was taken -- okay.

24 No, I don't see anything else. I was looking at

25 the latch on the door.

0284

 1 LOU SMIT: What's you --

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, they look like they were

 3 in the same position. Well I can't see them in

 4 both pictures. They were taken at the same time?

 5 LOU SMIT: That's 71 and 72 could have been.

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't see anything else.

 7 LOU SMIT: Okay. I'm going to hit one more

 8 area, and then Mike I wondered if you had some

 9 areas that you wanted to get into?

10 MIKE KANE: Um hmm.

11 LOU SMIT: So just one more area. Everybody

12 has heard about -- I can't say that. What have you

13 heard about a paint tray?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Just what I read, or tried

15 not to read. But can't help but hear the media

16 that tell us a broken paintbrush that was used as

17 part of the -- you see, I found JonBenet. I never

18 saw a cord or that sort of thing. I thought I saw

19 a cord, but I didn't focus on it or realize there

20 was anything in the way of a twister, which

21 apparently it was.

22 It apparently was a paintbrush. And that's based

23 on what I heard in the media. That's my

24 impression. That's all I really heard.

25 LOU SMIT: Your impression then of that

0285

 1 literature then, what did you picture that to be

 2 in your mind? I mean, you hadn't seen it?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I did remember -- I mean,

 4 the cord on her arms was kind of an unusual cord.

 5 It wasn't a piece of twine or heavy string or

 6 anything like that. It was like a drawstring out

 7 of a coat or something. It was woven kind of cord.

 8 (INAUDIBLE) apparently around the neck, I guess

 9 the same stuff. That's all I really noticed.

10 LOU SMIT: I'd like to show you a series

11 photographs. It starts at photograph 175, 178, 181

12 -- excuse me, 179, 180 and 181. and I'd just like

13 to show these photographs to you. Mr. Ramsey, I'll

14 just show them briefly for the camera. I know it's

15 hard to pick up completely but I'll show you

16 anyway, the front and back.

17 If you'll take a look at those and let me know,

18 first of all, what in fact is that? It's a tray

19 but --

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it's a tray of artist's

21 brushes; it looks like, which I presume was Patsy

22 and JonBenet's. They liked to paint together.

23 Looks like some paints. Can't tell what that is on

24 that side.

25 LOU SMIT: And you're pointing to --

0286

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: To these (INAUDIBLE)

 2 LOU SMIT: To the right side as you're

 3 looking at it?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

 5 LOU SMIT: And that's photograph 178, by

 6 the way.

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like it's sitting

 8 outside the door of the wine cellar. Were these

 9 pictures (INAUDIBLE)?

10 LOU SMIT: I can't say, but I don't believe

11 that you can see it in the others.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

13 LOU SMIT: But their perspective may

14 different.

15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't remember seeing

16 those in those other pictures, or this for that

17 matter. But I'd have to look at them again to see

18 if that was from a different perspective.

19 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) those two on the

20 top here. I can show you where they have the

21 handwriting.

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I can't even tell.

23 I'd say it looks like art supplies and then some

24 paint. That's painting Patsy had painted.

25 LOU SMIT: That's on photograph 178?

0287

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Looks like stuff I

 2 couldn't recognize as some paper towel in this

 3 picture. I don't know what this is.

 4 LOU SMIT: That's 182. That's just a

 5 photograph of a -- What is that photograph of?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: It looks like the blanket

 7 on the concrete floor. And that's quite possible.

 8 It could have been the white blanket she was

 9 wrapped in.

10 LOU SMIT: Where was that blanket on her

11 kept?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. Patsy said

13 that it came off her bed.

14 LOU SMIT: Is it something that was on

15 JonBenet's bed?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, according to Patsy,

17 yeah. That was the blanket that was on her bed.

18 No, I just can't tell what that is. I don't know.

19 LOU SMIT: That's on photograph 182?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

21 LOU SMIT: And you're pointing to a little

22 shiny object?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, it looks like -- yeah.

24 These other pictures could have been pictures that

25 Patsy used for examples of things to paint of. She

0288

 1 could answer that. Yeah.

 2 LOU SMIT: Sorry to be getting a little bit

 3 into these other kinds of areas I want to cover

 4 but --

 5 MIKE KANE: I'm not asking very much here

 6 but, I do have a whole series. As long as we can.

 7 I may cover some stuff that (INAUDIBLE), but I

 8 have no problem with that. It's okay.

 9 LOU SMIT: There's also photographs 183

10 and 184 that are taken in conjunction with that.

11 Photographs of the wine cellar floor. And I want

12 to show this to Mr. Ramsey. These, again, were

13 crime scene photographs after the search warrant

14 was obtained. If you have --

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it looks like it could

16 be a Christmas ornament. It looks a little bit

17 (INAUDIBLE) like the hook of the top of a

18 Christmas ornament. It wouldn't be unusual to find

19 one broken in that room.

20 LOU SMIT: It would not?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

22 LOU SMIT: Okay, good.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: That's where we stored the

24 Christmas trees and stuff.

25 LOU SMIT: Okay.

0289

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Looks like it's little

 2 fragments of the artificial tree over here. That

 3 would be my guess is what that is.

 4 LOU SMIT: I think I'm going to just

 5 switch gears right now, unless you have any other

 6 questions. One thing I did want to show you on

 7 picture 147 here; this again is photographs of the

 8 wine cellar. There's a series of them: 146, 147,

 9 148 and 149. Again, photographs of the wine cellar

10 after the search warrant was obtained.

11 And I'd like to just show them to you, Mr. Ramsey,

12 and see what you observe on these photographs,

13 whether they're in place or out of place or if

14 there's anything that seems to be different? And

15 what you remember?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, in terms of the pictures,

17 this cigar box is different, certainly.

18 LOU SMIT: And what do you mean by that?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, in terms of versus the other

20 picture, it's kind of resting on its bottom here,

21 more or less. Here it's a different box.

22 LOU SMIT: So you had more than one box

23 of cigars?

24 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember that box,

25 Romeo and Juliets. I remember this. The Cubans.

0290

 1 LOU SMIT: (INAUDIBLE) the same box?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't remember that box.

 3 LOU SMIT: Okay. That's it?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't. I don't. This --

 5 LOU SMIT: Photograph number --

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: -- 149, that was like

 7 (INAUDIBLE) what looks like a big piece of duct

 8 tape. That doesn't look like that tape I took off

 9 JonBenet's mouth.

10 LOU SMIT: Okay. And why do you say that?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, because as I recall,

12 it was black. It was like a little larger than

13 electrical tape in width. And it struck me, and as

14 I thought about it later, as the kind of tape you

15 might use in sailing to wrap around the stanchion

16 or something.

17 LOU SMIT: The black tape?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

19 LOU SMIT: Have you used that type of

20 tape on (INAUDIBLE)?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I didn't recognize it.

22 But in this picture, it looks like a piece of duct

23 tape. A big piece of duct tape. And that's not

24 what I remember.

25 LOU SMIT: Okay. That's on photograph number --

0291

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: 149. Cause it was like stuck

 2 to the blanket almost in this picture.

 3 LOU SMIT: What are you thinking?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: It's just hard to look at these,

 5 that's all. Basically JonBenet was right here.

 6 LOU SMIT: If you want to get off this,

 7 we can?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: No, that's okay. Sorry.

 9 LOU SMIT: You touched on something, you know,

10 and I was going to ask you about that tape later

11 on and the cord. But you mentioned that the tape

12 that you took off JonBenet, we're trying to

13 determine if in fact you could have been in

14 contact with that type of tape. And you mentioned

15 something about that's the type you seen on a

16 stanchion.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well it's just it wasn't

18 a tape that looked familiar to me, or it looked

19 like it wasn't torn, it was cut perfectly,

20 literally, that it fit her mouth. It was black, it

21 wider than electrical tape, but not as wide as

22 duct tape. I mean I know what duct tape is; it

23 wasn't duct tape.

24 Just thinking about it later, where do you get

25 this kind of tape? It's a little wider, and I've

0292

 1 seen it in white before. It's kind of a utility

 2 tape that you can use on a sailboat in boating.

 3 LOU SMIT: Okay.

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: And we had some, and

 5 there's white. Somebody had (INAUDIBILE) that they

 6 wrapped around rough edges, the stanchion, so that

 7 the sail didn't catch it and tear. It was just

 8 kind of a wider utility tape. I don't remember if

 9 we had any black or not. But certainly white.

10 LOU SMIT: And this would have been where?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Up at Michigan.

12 LOU SMIT: Michigan, okay.

13 JOHN RAMSEY: It wasn't a big piece of

14 duct tape like that.

15 LOU SMIT: Okay. And we're going to get

16 into to that. I've got some I'm going to show you

17 also later. It's just that we divided that up

18 between the other room and this one. And so, when

19 we get it I'll show you a little more on that

20 later. And we will come back to some areas again.

21 I want to just let Mike -- I know he's had

22 questions. He's kind of written down questions in

23 an order that he's used. So let's just kind of

24 shift gears just a little bit. Then we can come

25 back.

0293

 1 MIKE KANE: Mr. Ramsey, as I ask these

 2 questions, if there any that you don't want to

 3 answer, just let me know.

 4 I want to talk a little bit about the Christmas

 5 Eve period to Thanksgiving. Did you guys do

 6 anything for Thanksgiving?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, gosh. I don't remember.

 8 I'm sure we had.

 9 MIKE KANE: I mean, were you at home or

10 did you go some place?

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I remember. We were

12 at my brother's.

13 MIKE KANE: In Atlanta?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: That's up in Atlanta.

15 Because we had a family picture that was sent out

16 with our Christmas card. That was at my brother's

17 at Thanksgiving.

18 MIKE KANE: Okay. Now I think yesterday

19 that you mentioned when one of the parades on

20 December the 6th, that you were away then. Do you

21 recall where you were then?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: We had gone to New York

23 that weekend with Susan and Glen Stine. They

24 invited us to go. I forget when Glen came back, it

25 was like a Friday and they came back on the Sunday

0294

 1 or something like that.

 2 MIKE KANE: Where did you stay then?

 3 JOHN RAMSEY: I can see the place; I

 4 can't tell you the name. Patsy might remember.

 5 MIKE KANE: In Manhattan?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, it was downtown. It

 7 was near the theatre district. The Marriott or

 8 something like that.

 9 MIKE KANE: And you went there to go

10 to a dance -- The thought in the back of my mind

11 was that (INAUDIBLE) took JonBenet to New York. Is

12 that the same trip?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: No, that was a different trip.

14 Some friends of her in Charlevoix had a

15 mother/daughter trip to New York that they invited

16 her to go on. And that was, I think that was after

17 that. It was the Christmas season, as I recall.

18 And so she and JonBenet went. Patsy's mother and

19 sister went also. It was, as I recall, two or

20 three mother/daughter couples. And they went to

21 shows and the Center.

22 MIKE KANE: Rockefeller Center, you said?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

24 MIKE KANE: And how long of a trip was that?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it was on a long weekend.

0295

 1 I don't remember.

 2 MIKE KANE: During this period of time,

 3 and I'm going to get into this in more detail down

 4 the road. During this period of time between

 5 Christmas and Thanksgiving, did Patsy have any

 6 cancer treatments or follow-ups or trips to

 7 (INAUDIBLE)?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall that she did.

 9 But it's (INAUDIBLE) day. She would know if it

10 was. She knows exactly when she needs to go again.

11 MIKE KANE: Okay. The party when that

12 Santa Claus contacted you, that party was on the

13 23rd. Now in the past you've had those parties

14 were the same with (INAUDIBLE)?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes.

16 MIKE KANE: And this year, in 1996, you

17 said you weren't going to have it. Was there a

18 discussion about having it and you decided --

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, we talked about, you

20 know, should we have a Christmas party or should

21 we just have this big birthday party; and we were

22 going to leave town the next day; and the boat

23 trip. And we said, we won't really do that. I

24 think we were going to invite one or two couples

25 over with their kids and just have kind of a real

0296

 1 small family thing. That was the extent of it.

 2 MIKE KANE: And then Mr. McReynolds called

 3 and you spoke about him saying Charles Kuralt?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: We normally would have

 5 called him well before that to arrange for him to

 6 come. Of course, we didn't that year. But he

 7 called and said, you know, Charles Kuralt is here

 8 in town and he's doing a documentary on me and I'd

 9 love to bring him to your Christmas party. He's

10 come, because that's one of my favorites.

11 So Patsy got excited, so a party sounds like fun.

12 So we put it together.

13 MIKE KANE: How long before the 23rd was that?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: It wasn't very long before.

15 MIKE KANE: So, pretty short notice?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

17 MIKE KANE: What kinds of things did you

18 do to get ready for this?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I mean the house was

20 pretty well decorated. She just invited a lot more

21 people than we had planned to have over. And she

22 got those gingerbread things, I think, especially

23 for that.

24 MIKE KANE: What about food? Did she prepare

25 it or have it catered or what?

0297

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Usually she has it catered.

 2 I think that's what we did that night as well. I'm

 3 sure we did.

 4 MIKE KANE: Were there any other preparations

 5 for it, do you remember? You know, people that you

 6 might have contacted?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: No, besides the caterer.

 8 Then we have the other people we invited. I don't

 9 think so.

10 MIKE KANE: Did you have any workmen do

11 anything in the house in preparation for that?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I recall. We did have

13 -- the only work that was done in that period was:

14 Patsy's shower faucet had broken, the water. And

15 so we had a plumber come in. they tore out the

16 wall, you know, to get the valve out and replaced

17 out. And that was done, maybe Novemberish.

18 So now we had the shower wall with a big hole in

19 it and this Mervin Pew over Thanksgiving to repair

20 that tile work. But that's all work we had done in

21 the house around that period of time.

22 MIKE KANE: And while this Marvin Pew

23 was making that repair, did you contact him to do

24 that?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I didn't. Patsy arranged

0298

 1 for them to do some work. I remember she came to

 2 her and said, "We'd like some work." And she gave

 3 them a list of things to do. I think that's how.

 4 MIKE KANE: You said that the house was

 5 already decorated and the person who had done it

 6 in the past was Bill Wallace?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: He had helped in the past.

 8 I don't recall him being there this year. I know

 9 Patsy knew specifically what she did. You know, I

10 don't remember, but it wouldn't have surprised me

11 a bit if she threw up some extra decorations. They

12 were pretty excited that we were having an extra

13 party and so forth. But I don't remember her

14 specifically doing it. But she'd remember.

15 MIKE KANE: Mostly from what I can see from

16 photographs there are garland and things like that

17 look to me to be artificial. Is any of it real?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: The Christmas tree was real.

19 That's about it.

20 MIKE KANE: Do you know if any of the

21 greenery from your yard (INAUDIBLE)?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Sometimes she'd cut

23 (INAUDIBLE) in my yard, brought in ferns and stuff

24 for her room from the fir family, evergreen. But

25 I'm not sure.

0299

 1 MIKE KANE: You don't know?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) we got some

 3 holly in the room.

 4 MIKE KANE: You don't (INAUDIBLE)?

 5 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

 6 MIKE KANE: You don't know whether Wallace

 7 took part in that?

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't, but Patsy would

 9 know for sure.

10 MIKE KANE: When he assisted in doing

11 that, is that what he was? He assisted her?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

13 MIKE KANE: Or did he kind of do it

14 and she assisted? Which was it?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know. I knew he was

16 there, I guess, when (INAUDIBLE). I think he was

17 artsy, so I'm sure he had opinions and stuff on

18 what should go where. But I suspect it was

19 probably a joint effort.

20 MIKE KANE: Yesterday in the room we had

21 some confusion about when you were leaving. Well

22 we know it was the 26th that you were leaving for

23 Charlevoix. And we found out, I guess, that was a

24 Thursday, when you were going on the Big Red Boat.

25 Did you have an opportunity to talk about that?

0300

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we talked a little bit

 2 about it last night, because I was amazed of how

 3 poorly our memory of things like that. Patsy

 4 didn't remember it either, but it's easy to figure

 5 out, because we lot purchased the tickets through

 6 our travel agent and so forth.

 7 BRYAN MORGAN: I may be able to shorten

 8 that because I know that I have seen the

 9 reservations. So I would be glad to send you

10 copies.

11 MIKE KANE: Okay. That would clear that

12 right up. Great. Where did the idea of going on

13 the Big Red Boat, how did that come about?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we actually that was

15 fairly well in advance. We had never been on a

16 cruise. Christmas is a tough time for us because I

17 think we lost Beth in January, and we liked to

18 kind of have things to do and planned.

19 So we thought, that would be fun thing to do, a

20 family thing. And we had never been on a cruise,

21 and going to the Big Red Boat and have fun with

22 the kids. So we just planned it and it was kind of

23 a first. Because I'd never done something like

24 that. And it was planned well in advance and we

25 got a package deal and it was TWA that was going

0301

 1 through St. Louis, or something like that. Which I

 2 was kind of nervous about, because I could see us

 3 changing planes and missing planes. But it was a

 4 cheap airfare.

 5 MIKE KANE: You would rather have flown

 6 yourself?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Or rather flown nonstop to

 8 Orlando or something from Denver. I just get very

 9 nervous changing planes. But yeah, it was a trip

10 together. We had a very full, a very fun season

11 planned out.

12 MIKE KANE: Who made those arrangements?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy made the reservations?

14 MIKE KANE: Was it through the travel agent?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: The travel agent. Actually

16 I think I remember calling Walt Disney directly. I

17 think I might have gotten the number out of a

18 magazine or something. Because I think I remember

19 joining the Disney or somebody like that directly.

20 Because we had the option of going to Disney World

21 for a day or two, and we no, because Patsy didn't

22 want to. I Remember.

23 MIKE KANE: And then the trip to Charlevoix,

24 was that planned a lot in advance?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, fairly. Not months

0302

 1 in advance, at least a month in advance. We had to

 2 get tickets for the kids and figure out their

 3 schedule and get Mike Archuleta lined up. So it

 4 was planned. For sure three or four weeks in

 5 advance.

 6 MIKE KANE: Why Charlevoix?

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we have a summer

 8 cottage up there and I love it up there and the

 9 kids like it, and I just thought it would be fun

10 to have a Christmas up there just to see what it

11 was like.

12 MIKE KANE: Had you ever been up there

13 before?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: For Christmas?

15 MIKE KANE: Yes

16 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

17 MIKE KANE: Was the house, the cottage,

18 decorated?

19 JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy had a way of doing

20 things, had a local florist go out and drape

21 garland on the fence and lights, and I think they

22 decorated the mantle. We weren't going to have a

23 Christmas tree because we were only going for a

24 short stay. It didn't make any sense. But she had

25 it decorated. We never saw it. But it supposedly

0303

 1 decorated. Because we wanted it to be nice for

 2 Melinda and (INAUDIBLE) and the other kids.

 3 MIKE KANE: How often did you go to Charlevoix?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy would normally go

 5 up with the kids, because we've only had it for

 6 three or four five years, something like that. But

 7 she would go up in June and stay through August.

 8 MIKE KANE: And go out every year?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, every year that we've

10 had it, we just may have been two or three

11 summers.

12 MIKE KANE: So you had never been out there

13 for Christmas before?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: No.

15 MIKE KANE: Did you take the trips there

16 during the winter --

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, once a year, maybe. We

18 didn't go till much later.

19 MIKE KANE: And is there like an airport

20 where

21 you can land?

22 JOHN RAMSEY: Within a mile of the house.

23 MIKE KANE: And you had a car up there?

24 I mean, from the airport you'd just leave it at

25 the airport?

0304

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: We've done both. I don't

 2 remember then what whether it was at the airport

 3 or in the garage. I think that it was in the

 4 garage. And then we'd call neighbors and they

 5 would come pick us up. I think that's probably

 6 what we would have done.

 7 MIKE KANE: You said you had clothes up

 8 there?

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.

10 MIKE KANE: How much in the way of winter

11 clothes did you have?

12 JOHN RAMSEY: We had jeans and sweatshirts,

13 which is really all we need. I hate to haul a lot

14 of stuff when we're traveling. I just travel so

15 much, I guess. That's one of the attractions of

16 having a place like that is, when you go there you

17 shouldn't have to carry everything with you.

18 So I consciously don't do that, and make it a

19 point to try to have the stuff there:

20 toothbrushes, extra electric shaver, (INAUDIBLE)

21 so I don't have to take things back to Boulder. As

22 I recall, the only thing I wanted to take with me

23 was a winter coat.

24 MIKE KANE: Yeah. You had mentioned that

25 about some luggage, the pull-behind type. Were you

0305

 1 have taking that to Charlevoix?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know if we were

 3 taking it to Charlevoix or not. I think we had

 4 something packed for the boat trip. A lot of times

 5 we would just -- because the kids always had stuff

 6 they had to take, because they always are growing

 7 out of clothes, so you can leave the right stuff

 8 there. But when you came back it was too small.

 9 But we try to pack like in soft bags or plastic

10 bags. Because it's just easier to cram that in the

11 plane.

12 MIKE KANE: Does the King Air have a

13 separate cargo hold?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it's like just in

15 the back of the cabin. So if you pack in a soft

16 thing, you can really fill up that little space.

17 (INAUDIBLE).

18 MIKE KANE: And that was pretty big capacity,

19 though, weight wise?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, yeah. You can --

21 MIKE KANE: What was that? Four thousand

22 pounds or something like that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, empty. But you put

24 fuel on board. Yeah.

25 MIKE KANE: Yeah.

0306

 1 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

 2 MIKE KANE: Did you have any problem with

 3 that?

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't remember any.

 5 MIKE KANE: I'm going to get into another

 6 area here. Like I said yesterday, they'll try to

 7 put anything into (INAUDIBLE).

 8 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.

 9 MIKE KANE: Okay. You hired media consultants.

10 (INAUDIBLE) you hear about. But whenever you hear

11 about the Ramseys, you always hear they hired

12 media consultants. Tell me about that?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: As far as I'm concerned,

14 (INAUDIBLE), it's the biggest mistake he ever

15 made. These guys came to us and said, well we got

16 to get --

17 BRYAN MORGAN: Wait a minute, wait, wait.

18 You're getting into attorney/client conversation.

19 MIKE KANE: Don't tell anything that is --

20 JOHN RAMSEY: We didn't hire --

21 BRYAN MORGAN: I am entirely willing to explain

22 it, but this is not a general area. (INAUDIBLE)

23 talk about this particular back and forth between

24 us.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: They said we have to be

0307

 1 isolated from these piranhas so we can do our job.

 2 But we needed somebody that could respond to them

 3 with accurate information, but keep us from having

 4 to deal with these people. And, you know, we were

 5 total on autopilot, because we were in shock. We

 6 had lost our daughter.

 7 This guy, I forget his name now, was brought in.

 8 And the objective was to try to give the sharks

 9 what they wanted so they'd go away. And these guys

10 came in and they did what needed to be done. I

11 mean, we were trying to figure out, let's find out

12 who did this. (INAUDIBLE) here, how to get away

13 from here. And that was the objective.

14 MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. Yeah. And it was a

16 total weight of money.

17 MIKE KANE: How is that?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: He was a blow bag. He was

19 worthless. What we should have done is put a phone

20 number in and hired somebody that knew how to not

21 say anything, to be polite.

22 MIKE KANE: What was it that he didn't do?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well the one thing that he

24 did, and had backfired in our face was, he said I

25 worked out a deal with the media that, if you will

0308

 1 give them some footage, they'll go away. I'd like

 2 it that when you come out of the church. He set it

 3 up so they would be there and he said if you could

 4 do this one thing they'd get their meat and then

 5 they'll leave. (INAUDIBLE)

 6 And we said, okay. We'll do that. Because

 7 that's the video they used a lot, when we were

 8 walking out of the church. And we had set it up

 9 with Father Rol, that this would happen, and sorry

10 that these guys were hanging outside the church

11 anyway.

12 And so Father Rol agreed and he said

13 we'll walk over to the sanctuary where the

14 community center was. At the sermon he said,

15 "Okay, I'm going to do something that I said I

16 wouldn't do, but I'm going to do it anyway." He

17 said, "Here's what's going to happen. I would like

18 all of you to line up along the sidewalk and

19 protect the Ramseys from these people and show

20 your support." He said, "You don't have to do it.

21 But if you'd like to, that's what I'd like to do."

22 And sure enough, everybody wanted to

23 line up along the sidewalk. Well the media said

24 the Ramseys set this up and media consultant

25 arranged this and what a sham. And that was the

0309

 1 start of our disgust with the media.

 2 BRYAN MORGAN: And the same thing again,

 3 pursuant to my limit on this particular issue. I

 4 think my office got 400 phone calls in the first

 5 week or seven or eight business days after somehow

 6 word got out that we were involved. That was the

 7 driving factor in trying to get something to be

 8 done (INAUDIBLE).

 9 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) between them,

10 us, the police and these animals. And that's why

11 we tried to put that in place.

12 BRYAN MORGAN: And I agree with John,

13 when he said it was a mistake we made, we're

14 responsible for it. We needed lawyers, we

15 (INAUDIBLE). We didn't have any idea how it was

16 going to happen. And that was a mistake;

17 completely misinterpreted. And we hired

18 (INAUDIBLE) for that.

19 MIKE KANE: Now you talked about the

20 incoming stuff, what about the outgoing stuff? Did

21 the media, either him or his firm or anybody else,

22 have a role in formulating any of these strategies

23 with either CNN or the people? Did any of them

24 have any discussions with them?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Not that I remember.

0310

 1 BRYAN MORGAN: Nothing with CNN. I don't

 2 quite understand it. They had nothing to do with

 3 anything legal in a strategy for us.

 4 JOHN RAMSEY: Are you talking about

 5 Kourten, or are you talking about --

 6 MIKE KANE: No, I'm not talking about

 7 you guys, I'm talking about Kourten.

 8 BRYAN MORGAN: The answer is, no.

 9 MIKE KANE: Well, may I direct it to your

10 client?

11 BRYAN MORGAN: You answer.

12 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember saying

13 that. I thought he was a total jerk, frankly. I

14 talked to him probably three times, I suppose.

15 MIKE KANE: And what (INAUDIBLE)?

16 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE)

17 BRYAN MORGAN: I want to make sure that

18 we're not now getting into that gentlemen, who was

19 hired through my firm to protect a privilege. So

20 if this is not some open-ended labor so that

21 everybody can run and talk to Pat Kourten.

22 If we have that understanding, I will

23 let John talk about it.

24 MIKE KANE: Well, I mean, I don't know

25 if that would be determined attorney/client

0311

 1 privilege.

 2 BRYAN MORGAN: That's what it is. He was

 3 hired as our agent.

 4 MIKE KANE: Well, I don't know that --

 5 I don't want to get into any area if you can't --

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: If you're going start

 7 asking questions about stuff your read in the

 8 media, we're going to be here a long time and I'm

 9 going to be angry, because all of that was

10 bullshit. How more pointed can I put that.

11 MIKE KANE: Like I said, if I have a

12 question and you don't want to answer it, just

13 don't answer it.

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I want to stuff that's

15 constructive. And if you start pulling stuff that

16 you read in the media out and ask me about it,

17 Whew. That's not constructive. That's not good

18 information.

19 MIKE KANE: I need to find out if it's

20 true or not.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Why?

22 MIKE KANE: Well, like I said, if you start

23 second-guessing my motives, can't do that.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, all I can say is, Pat

25 Kourten was brought in to keep these animals from

0312

 1 people who were trying to do their work. That

 2 included the police, that included the city, that

 3 included my attorneys, that included our privacy.

 4 He had failed miserably. It backfired on us by the

 5 creatures that we tried to protect ourselves from.

 6 I tell you, we spend a lot of money on it, you

 7 know, painfully. So I don't know what else I can

 8 say about it.

 9 There was no strategy to try to influence

10 anybody. We were in mourning, in deep shock. We

11 didn't care about living. We'd lost the most

12 precious thing in our life. We were trying to

13 survive from hour to hour.

14 MIKE KANE: As time went on, how about in

15 the May first interview with the local media here,

16 was there any discussions about how that would be

17 setup?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: Which was that? Was that the

19 one in the hotel room?

20 LOU SMIT: He's referring to the interview

21 immediately after the (INAUDIBLE) interrogation by

22 the Boulder Police Department.

23 JOHN RAMSEY: No, we just said, look we've

24 been so criticized for not cooperating, which was

25 ridiculous, because we'd happily agreed to do

0313

 1 anything that we were asked. The only one thing we

 2 asked was, that if we're going to sit down in an

 3 interview, we wanted a representative for the

 4 district attorney, and that these fellows'

 5 recommendations.

 6 And we were just roundly criticized.

 7 False information was out there about what we had

 8 or hadn't done. And we said, well we'd do this. We

 9 want to say we've done it. For the reputation of

10 our family for our reputation. And try to correct

11 the record.

12 So they set up that little meeting.

13 MIKE KANE: Who set that up?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Charlie Russell, I think.

15 BRYAN MORGAN: I don't really know.

16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember that.

17 MIKE KANE: Charlie Russell?

18 JOHN RAMSEY: He's the guy that was brought

19 in as a buffer after we got rid of Kourten to try

20 to -- and he put in girl that answered the media

21 line, Rachel Zimmer. So now these guys had a

22 number they could call.

23 Of course, as far as I remember, wasn't

24 telling them very much. But at least if their boss

25 said go check with the Ramsey camp, they could

0314

 1 call this number and Rachel would tell them one

 2 thing, well they'll call you. And of course, she

 3 never would. And he put that in place.

 4 He, again, tried to put a wall up. So

 5 they (INAUDIBLE). I don't remember if it was

 6 Rachel or Charlie or who, I don't know. But as a

 7 legitimate of the media people that we could find

 8 in the local area.

 9 MIKE KANE: Who hired Charlie Russell?

10 BRYAN MORGAN: We did. My law firm.

11 MIKE KANE: Okay. Did any media people play

12 a role in formulating the flyers or the

13 advertisements you put out?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Not that I recall.

15 BRYAN MORGAN: I was involved in that again.

16 Subject to my understanding, our understanding.

17 This is not a waiver of anything else. But I can

18 answer that question if you want an answer.

19 MIKE KANE: I want to hear Mr. Ramsey's

20 answers.

21 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I don't know. I --

22 MIKE KANE: Okay. Well if that's the answer,

23 then that's the answer.

24 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

25 MIKE KANE: Okay. That's all I need to know.

0315

 1 Yesterday you spoke about when Commander Becker, I

 2 guess soon-to-be Chief Becker, came into the

 3 picture, that he would have, I don't know if you

 4 contacted him directly or he had an invitation of

 5 some sort?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, actually through our

 7 minister, Steve Thomas is one of the detectives.

 8 Gee, it would be nice if we could just talk and

 9 not give it second hand, because (INAUDIBLE)

10 conversation. We just kind of like laughed. We sat

11 down to coffee and said let's see if we can break

12 the ice here.

13 And we thought it was a genuine offer and a

14 genuine attempt to establish some trust and

15 communication. And we told Rol, we said, "Hey,

16 great." We want to do that. He's a new guy. We

17 certainly had no use for Eller. They said let us

18 see if we can (INAUDIBLE) this crime.

19 That's all we cared about. We didn't care

20 about people's jobs or careers, how it looked in

21 public. It was extremely frustrating for us that

22 we can't sit down and have that kind of

23 conversation.

24 What we basically offered through Rol was,

25 yes, we'd love to have you come to Atlanta, come

0316

 1 to our home, let's sit down and talk. Let's get to

 2 know each other as human beings and let's go

 3 forward.

 4 And the response that we got back was,

 5 well that would be to their advantage. I want to

 6 meet them in a neutral place, not in their home.

 7 And I said, God, what are we dealing with? What

 8 kind of mentality are we dealing with here.

 9 We are the parents of a murdered child

10 who was murdered in this man's jurisdiction. He's

11 in charge of the investigation; he won't come to

12 our home to call on us to tell us what's going on,

13 to introduce himself. We give up.

14 MIKE KANE: Where did he offer to meet you?

15 JOHN RAMSEY: He never did.

16 MIKE KANE: He said a neutral spot.

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well that's all we heard. He

18 never said what that was.

19 MIKE KANE: How did you hear that? Was that

20 from him directly or was that from --

21 JOHN RAMSEY: From Father Rol. Oh, he would

22 never talk to us. It was either Father Rol or

23 maybe Bryan. (INAUDIBLE).

24 MIKE KANE: What was your understanding

25 about -- would be a mutual spot be in Georgia or

0317

 1 Colorado?

 2 JOHN RAMSEY: My impression was, it was

 3 the police station.

 4 MIKE KANE: Why that impression if it was

 5 neutral?

 6 JOHN RAMSEY: You have a good point. (INAUDIBLE).

 7 But that was the impression we got. I don't know

 8 if we know anymore than that.

 9 BRYAN MORGAN: I do. But I'm not answering

10 the question.

11 JOHN RAMSEY: All right. I don't know.

12 MIKE KANE: So was it your decision not to

13 do anything? You were just (INAUDIBLE)?

14 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. I said, look it. Again,

15 that is the mentality that's trying to help us. We

16 don't need that kind of help.

17 MIKE KANE: I think it was on the CNN January

18 first interview, you said that at that point you

19 wanted to hire -- do your investigation to make

20 sure that there was an investigation. And I think

21 you used the term "best minds in the country".

22 What have you done to follow up on that?

23 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we brought in John Douglas

24 earlier on. Patsy and I have met with him

25 individually, no bias. In fact, I think he told

0318

 1 the news guys. He said, "I'm going to talk to

 2 them." And I think I know what the answer is going

 3 to be, because I'd been reading the paper.

 4 So we sat, each of us sat with him for probably

 5 an hour as an investigator. He came away --

 6 BRYAN MORGAN: Hold it, hold it.

 7 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.

 8 BRYAN MORGAN: That's a waiver problem.

 9 We hired Douglas just like we hired this guy. And

10 if you want to hear what John has to say, I'll let

11 him give it to you, but I don't want to waive the

12 privilege, and I consider it privileged.

13 MIKE KANE: Okay.

14 BRYAN MORGAN: If you want to hear an answer

15 with that understanding?

16 MIKE KANE: Sure.

17 BRYAN MORGAN: Okay.

18 JOHN RAMSEY: He said, the report we got

19 back was that the police these people are wrong;

20 they're barking up the wrong tree. And then we

21 took him to the house. We told him everything we

22 knew. He spent several days there. He came back

23 and said, I think it's somebody you know. I think

24 it's somebody that is angry with you or jealous. I

25 think it's somebody who has been in the house

0319

 1 before.

 2 And that became kind of the foundation

 3 for who it could have been. We have had some

 4 follow-up with him. I know Ellis went back with

 5 him later; many months later. He was still very

 6 solid on that. And we offered his services to the

 7 police. I think he met with them for an hour or

 8 two. Our investigators have followed up leads that

 9 we've gotten. I think they've given most, if not

10 all, to the police. I'm sure probably all.

11 We ran those ads. One of the things that Douglas

12 said right off, he said publish the ransom note.

13 Put it on a billboard outside of town. Somebody

14 will recognize that handwriting or the wording or

15 the language. And we tried for months to get that

16 to happen and we finally got the permission to

17 print the letters or something (INAUDIBLE) and we

18 had some full-page ads.

19 We still have a tip line that we monitor everyday.

20 I don't know what else to do. In fact, I would

21 love to offer -- I was very impressed with

22 Douglas.

23 MIKE KANE: Would you have probably talked

24 to them.

25 JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely not. I wouldn't.

0320

 1 BRYAN MORGAN: Well I wouldn't. I'm not

 2 getting into a general waiver about this, and

 3 that's the reason I've protected it the way I did.

 4 John's giving you an accurate summary of the

 5 information John Douglas told us. And if there is

 6 to be a further discussion with Douglas, I need to

 7 be involved in that.

 8 MIKE KANE: I would think so. I will have

 9 to do a formal letter.

10 BRYAN MORGAN: Okay.

11 MIKE KANE: Anybody else that you brought

12 in on a national level or who you got involved?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we brought in handwriting

14 experts. Geez, I don't know. I had lots of people.

15 I mean, what frustrated us so much in the

16 beginning was we didn't think we -- Okay, we