0001
1 _______________________________________________
2
3 IN THE MATTER OF:
4
5
6 INTERVIEW WITH PATSY RAMSEY
7
8 _______________________________________________
9
10
11 TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW
12
13 VOLUME 1 of 4
14 PAGES 1 - 140
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18
19 JUNE 23, 1998
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25
0002
1 FOR PATSY RAMSEY'S INTERVIEW,
2 THE FOLLOWING WERE PRESENT:
3
4
5 THOMAS HANEY
6 TRIP DeMUTH
7 PATRICK BURKE
8 ELLIS ARMISTEAD
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
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25
0003
1 TOM HANEY: Today's date is June
2 23, 1998. We are at the Broomfield Police
3 Department, the time is approximately 9:04 a.m.
4 Present are Patricia Ramsey, Pat
5 Burke, attorney-at-law, Ellis Armistead, Trip
6 DeMuth from the Boulder County Sheriff's or
7 District Attorney's Office and my name is Tom
8 Haney, I am with the Denver District Attorney's
9 Office and working for the Boulder Police
10 Department or Sheriff's -- District Attorney's
11 Office.
12 Ms. Ramsey, I want to tell you that
13 this interview is being both audio and video
14 recorded. This is a voluntary statement.
15 You're free to go or free to stop this interview
16 at any time. Do you understand that?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
18 TOM HANEY: Why are you appearing
19 today?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I have been
21 since the beginning of a new page in trying to
22 find out who murdered our daughter.
23 TOM HANEY: And as I said earlier,
24 you are here voluntarily. In fact, it was your
25 idea?
0004
1 PATSY RAMSEY: That's right.
2 TOM HANEY: And you're willing to
3 discuss with us anything we ask and answer any
4 questions that we have?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: As far as I -- it's
6 productive and we are trying to get to the
7 bottom of this, I will be here for the duration.
8 TOM HANEY: Okay, thank you.
9 That's our intention, we want to move this case
10 forward. It's been some 14 months, I think,
11 since your previous statement. I want you to
12 know that some of the questions that we ask
13 today may be very personal, and we are not
14 trying to antagonize you or upset you, but these
15 are questions that have arisen in the course of
16 the investigation. They are based on facts,
17 rumors, stories, and we feel that we have to ask
18 all of them. Okay?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
20 TOM HANEY: Is there anything
21 preliminarily from anybody? Mr. Burke?
22 MR. BURKE: No.
23 TOM HANEY: Trip?
24 TRIP DeMUTH: No.
25 TOM HANEY: Ms. Ramsey, are you
0005
1 currently under a doctor's care?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I am.
3 TOM HANEY: And who is the doctor?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Dr. Sammy Brown,
5 Samuel Brown in Atlanta, psychiatrist, M.D.
6 TOM HANEY: Okay. And are you
7 taking any medication?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
9 TOM HANEY: And what are you
10 taking?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I take 30 milligrams
12 of Prozac a day, and Ativan, half a milligram as
13 needed.
14 TOM HANEY: When is the last time
15 you took either/or both of these?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: I took 20 milligrams
17 of Prozac this morning and I will take ten this
18 evening. And I took Ativan, half a milligram of
19 Ativan.
20 TOM HANEY: Are you under any other
21 doctor's care?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I am a patient of
23 the National Cancer Institute in Bethesda,
24 Maryland, I go there twice a year now.
25 TOM HANEY: Are you on any
0006
1 medication?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
3 TOM HANEY: Any other supplements,
4 over-the-counter items, anything like that?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
6 TOM HANEY: Ms. Ramsey, let's just
7 start off by you telling us what you can about
8 the death of JonBenet?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Where would you like
10 to start?
11 TOM HANEY: Just wherever you want
12 to start right now. Like I said, we have tons
13 of questions, but I want to give you this
14 opportunity early on to tell the -- what you
15 know about it.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, all I know is
17 that her father and I put her to bed. The night
18 of Christmas day, 25th. And that was the last
19 time I saw her until the afternoon of the 26th,
20 when John discovered her body in the basement
21 and we had -- I had found the note which said
22 that it was a kidnapping.
23 So that morning we were all
24 operating under the presumption of the facts of
25 a kidnapping. Fact that it was a kidnapping.
0007
1 The police were there and they were setting up
2 telephones and all that. They were trying to
3 obtain the ransom money and all that kind of
4 stuff. And then we found out otherwise.
5 TOM HANEY: What I would like to do
6 now is just kind of walk you through diagrams of
7 the house, and it's going to be a little bit
8 tricky here, but first of all, if you just take
9 a minute and look. This is of the third floor,
10 floor plan. It's -- I don't know if it's
11 approximately to scale. If you just look it
12 over.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
14 TOM HANEY: Orient yourself there.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. Uh-hum.
16 Okay.
17 TOM HANEY: And look at the other
18 diagrams too, before we start, just to make sure
19 that you have oriented yourself and they are
20 fairly accurate representations of the house.
21 MR. BURKE: I assume that when we
22 get a copy of the tape we will get copies of
23 these I guess you call them demonstrative
24 exhibits.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: We are about to -- we
0008
1 can talk about it during a break.
2 TOM HANEY: And that was the second
3 floor.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
5 TOM HANEY: This is the main level?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding). Right.
7 Uh-hum.
8 TOM HANEY: What I would like to do
9 then is just have you walk us through and maybe
10 first of all, just in your own words again, if
11 you could tell us from the time that you got up
12 on the 26th of December, what you did and what
13 happened on that, after you go through it all
14 once and we will come back again and that's when
15 I would like you to mark on here, we will trace
16 your path, your route, what you did and the last
17 additional questions then, okay?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. I awakened
19 that morning, probably somewhere between 5:30
20 and 6. We are going to take off for the airport
21 just at 7, we were going to the lake house. I
22 got up and walked over here to my bathroom right
23 in here.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: I am sorry, I missed
25 what you said, what time you said.
0009
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Sometime
2 between 5:30 and 6 a.m. And walked around
3 here to the bathroom and I did not take a shower
4 that morning, so I don't know, you know, what
5 exactly I did here. I mean other than just get
6 dressed, brush my teeth, put on my make up. And
7 get ready to go.
8 And then I walked down downstairs
9 here, came to the landing there (showing
10 document) and there was an ironing board here,
11 some clothes, I had a plastic bag kind of right
12 in here somewhere that I had just things to
13 throw, throw in, to take for my trip. And I
14 think I was here for a couple of minutes, just
15 getting some clothes, things.
16 And then I started down the stairs,
17 this staircase, to go to the kitchen. And the
18 note was on the landing, on the stairs, the
19 bottom of the stairs here. And I, there was
20 some lighting on, but it wasn't bright lights
21 (INAUDIBLE) and looked -- you know, started
22 reading the letter.
23 And after the first couple of
24 sentences realized, you know, what was
25 happening, and I ran back up these stairs, okay,
0010
1 and pushed her door to her room right here, and
2 she was not in her bed. So I went over to these
3 stairs and yelled out for John, called to him
4 and he came down. And I said "she's been
5 kidnapped, here's a note," whatever. And I was
6 panicking, you know. I think -- I can't
7 remember exactly what I did then, whether -- I
8 think I ran downstairs again.
9 I said, you know, "what do we do,
10 what do we do?"
11 He said, "call 911, call the
12 police."
13 I ran upstairs, and I think -- I
14 think -- I -- I can't remember if -- I think
15 asked him to check on Burke, one of us checked
16 on Burke, and I remember just seeing him at the
17 phone, trying to -- and then I looked down and
18 John came down and on the floor, down here
19 (indicating), I came in here, here, and John
20 came down, I went to the telephone here, and he
21 kind of crouched on the floor, he was in his
22 underwear, and read the papers on the floor
23 right there, and you know, I was trying to get
24 this 911 person to -- it just seemed like it
25 took forever, to drag through, you know, crazy
0011
1 by that time.
2 Anyway, got the message across, she
3 said she would send somebody out, and oh, God in
4 heaven. Oh, then I phone -- called our friends,
5 Mr. and Mrs. Fleet White and Mr. and
6 Mrs. Johnson, they live in Boulder. I think
7 John went back up to get dressed.
8 And I called them and told them
9 that she's been kidnapped, she is missing. And
10 then I walked out through here, and opened the
11 door, and started waiting for -- front door --
12 started waiting for the police to show up.
13 (INAUDIBLE).
14 I was standing on the (INAUDIBLE)
15 and pretty soon a squad car came -- you know,
16 officer came up. And I remember thinking
17 because it said somewhere in the note, if you do
18 that, if you call somebody, that's not good.
19 Blah, blah, blah. And I just remembered
20 thinking oh, my God, I hope they are not
21 watching me. I mean, what if they are watching,
22 if the policeman comes, I mean all this was just
23 rushing through my head.
24 Anyway, he came in and -- and I was
25 just rattled. I think John came in, and I think
0012
1 he kind of walked us over to this sun room area,
2 and tried to -- tried to calm us down and, you
3 know, tried to explain what happened. And then
4 they kind of took over.
5 TOM HANEY: Okay. Let me remove a
6 couple of these and we will get started
7 backwards on some questions, and then like I
8 said we will ask you just with a marker, and I
9 will just kind of hold onto it and give it to
10 you intermittently, but you said you woke up
11 between 5:30 and 6; is that correct?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I would --
13 TOM HANEY: Had you set the alarm,
14 did you intend --
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't set the
16 alarm. John, it's on his side of the bed and he
17 always sets that. I was just thinking he wanted
18 to take off at 7, so it means we had to leave
19 the house about 6:30, and I usually get up about
20 45 minutes, half an hour, 45 minutes to an hour
21 earlier to kind of pull things together. And we
22 just throw our clothes on and go when it's that
23 early.
24 We had to leave at 7 because we had
25 to meet Melinda and John Andrew. Normally it
0013
1 doesn't matter whether you're five or ten
2 minutes late, you're not meeting anything, you
3 are not on a schedule, but we were rendezvousing
4 with them, they were flying commercially from
5 Atlanta to Minneapolis, so we had to take off at
6 7 to meet their flight in Minneapolis.
7 TOM HANEY: Where in Minneapolis
8 were you to meet them?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: At the airport.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay. Did they take
11 commercial and private?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, usually there
13 is a commercial area. Correct.
14 TOM HANEY: So you wake up and
15 you're not sure of the time. Did you happen to
16 look at the clock?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not -- I mean, not
18 to the minute, no. I mean -- no. Sometime
19 between 5:30 and 6.
20 TOM HANEY: Okay. And when you
21 woke up, where was John?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: He was up already.
23 He had gotten up, I think he was in the
24 bathroom.
25 TOM HANEY: And his bathroom --
0014
1 okay.
2 Did you see him or hear him at that
3 time?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think I saw
5 him. I think I heard his shower on.
6 TOM HANEY: Let's back up a little
7 bit. That night, did you get a good night's
8 sleep?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Uh-hum.
10 TOM HANEY: Approximately what time
11 did you get to sleep on the 25th?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know
13 what time. I mean --
14 TOM HANEY: We understand that--
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Just before, I mean
16 it was 10 o'clock-ish. Probably something like
17 that.
18 TOM HANEY: When you actually went
19 to sleep?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it was pretty
21 soon after I hit the bed, yeah, I was pretty
22 tired.
23 TOM HANEY: So about--
24 PATSY RAMSEY: About 10:30-ish, I
25 think.
0015
1 TOM HANEY: Okay, and did -- you
2 get up between 5:30 and 6. Had you gotten up at
3 all during the night?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
5 TOM HANEY: Had you slept fairly
6 well?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
8 TOM HANEY: Well rested?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
10 TOM HANEY: Do you normally sleep
11 through the night?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, pretty much.
13 TOM HANEY: How about John?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Through the night.
15 TOM HANEY: To the best of your
16 knowledge?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
18 TOM HANEY: And he normally is a
19 pretty sound sleeper?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
21 TOM HANEY: How about Burke?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Sound sleeper.
23 TOM HANEY: And--
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean sometimes I
25 will hear him get up and go to the bathroom, but
0016
1 I didn't hear anything last night. I didn't
2 here anything that night.
3 TOM HANEY: And how about JonBenet?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: She was really a
5 sound sleeper. She was very sound asleep that
6 night. She fell asleep in the car and was just
7 wiped out. She went to bed.
8 TOM HANEY: And you didn't wake up
9 at all during the night?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
11 TOM HANEY: You didn't hear a
12 scream, nothing startled you?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head with
14 no audible answer).
15 TOM HANEY: And now a neighbor did
16 hear reportedly a scream, somewhere between
17 midnight and 2 a.m.?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head with
19 no audible answer.)
20 TOM HANEY: When you got up, were
21 there any lights on?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I am sure there
23 were. We -- we -- the house was big, and
24 twisty-turny, you know, so we nearly always left
25 a light on in case somebody did get up or
0017
1 something. Because there are a lot of little
2 steps and what not. And we are not very good
3 about turning lights off.
4 TOM HANEY: Is there -- there
5 particular ones that you normally leave on?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
7 TOM HANEY: And/or we will just
8 stick with this floor for now.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: No, nothing here.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay. When you got up,
11 was it pitch black?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: John -- John, I
13 remember his bathroom right here had a light.
14 TOM HANEY: Okay. So it's shining
15 somewhat down to here, but we are talking quite
16 a distance?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, there is a
18 hall light here, right here I think. That was
19 on. Because I remember, you know, when you
20 first look up it's like bright, you know, but I
21 think that he was up already, he had gone
22 through here, you know, to his bathroom area.
23 TOM HANEY: What I would like to do
24 then is with this blue marker, can you just
25 indicate the path that you took getting out of
0018
1 bed and then the first stop you made, the first
2 thing you did along that route.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: My clothes were
4 probably thrown on the bathtub (INAUDIBLE).
5 TOM HANEY: Let me stop you there.
6 The clothes that you say were thrown down, those
7 were clothes you had worn the night before?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
9 TOM HANEY: Okay. Seems odd to me.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Early. I do this a
11 lot.
12 TOM HANEY: Now did you intend to
13 wear those the rest of the day though or --
14 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS)?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably what I
16 thought I would do, you know, my thinking was I
17 have my underwear and all that is in these
18 drawers here, so I put my underwear on, but I
19 put the black velvet pants on the and the red
20 sweater, red top, and then we have clothes up at
21 the lake, and I took a few things with me. You
22 know, it was just so early, I was just going to
23 throw on whatever I had up there. Just get in,
24 tumble into bed and when we awake early, you
25 know, kind of almost get ready up there. You
0019
1 know.
2 I put make up on and brushed my
3 hair but --
4 TOM HANEY: Let me steal that for a
5 second before --
6 PATSY RAMSEY: It's all over your
7 shirt, yeah.
8 TOM HANEY: So this would have not
9 been your normal routine, though, to put the
10 same clothes on?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I do whatever
12 I want. I told you that. I mean if I had a
13 pair, you know, of black shorts on, you can wear
14 them two, three days, before I send them to the
15 dry cleaners. I might have changed the top or
16 something but --
17 TOM HANEY: Okay. Okay.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't like to do
19 laundry so I --
20 TOM HANEY: And you're getting
21 ready for this trip anyway?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
23 TOM HANEY: And there is really not
24 a whole lot of time --
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
0020
1 TOM HANEY: -- if you're going to
2 leave at 7?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
4 TOM HANEY: So you say you put your
5 makeup on?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding.)
7 TOM HANEY: What brands of makeup
8 do you wear?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Different kinds.
10 TOM HANEY: Do you know what it
11 would have been at that time?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably the
13 foundation was probably either Clinique or
14 Chanel, my sister sells Chanel and she has
15 samples of everything. So keeps us in samples
16 (INAUDIBLE). Just guessing, I don't know.
17 TOM HANEY: What did you say this
18 was, the--
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Foundation.
20 TOM HANEY: Foundation. Okay. Are
21 there other things that you put on--
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Blush, lipstick. I
23 probably didn't really do a terrific job. I
24 mean just putting, get a little bit on and go,
25 you know.
0021
1 TOM HANEY: Okay. And how long do
2 you think all that in the bathroom took?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, 20, 30 minutes.
4 TOM HANEY: And what --
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Is that a different
6 brand of blush that you put on? Is that the
7 same Clinique?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I
9 have a draw full of stuff. I don't necessarily
10 use the same, you know, Chanel, Chanel, Chanel,
11 Clinique, Clinique. Just kind of whatever jar
12 is there.
13 TOM HANEY: Okay. Then after that
14 20 or 30 minutes in there, if you just take the
15 marker again and indicate the next place you
16 went?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
18 (INAUDIBLE.)
19 Okay.
20 TOM HANEY: So now we are on the
21 second floor, because you're coming down the
22 stairs?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, I am coming
24 down this way, yes. Uh-hum. I don't know, over
25 here, the laundry area, I had the ironing board
0022
1 somewhere here. And I had -- I think I had a
2 couple of plastic bags here somewhere. I think
3 I had in case I had run into the kids to take to
4 the lake. In this case I had two suit -- should
5 I write on it?
6 TOM HANEY: The only problem is I
7 don't think that the camera pick this up at this
8 angle. But you have drawn in the laundry area,
9 kind of an oblong shape for the ironing board
10 and then --
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Plastic bag.
12 TOM HANEY: -- little plastic bag,
13 which is kind of a square, rectangle, and you
14 stopped there?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Just momentary. I
16 remember -- remember laying the little red
17 jumpsuit of JonBenet's over the ironing board,
18 because it had a few spots on it, so I was
19 thinking when I came back from the lake I was
20 going to take that to the dry cleaners, and
21 decided to lay that under there somewhere.
22 TOM HANEY: Was that -- it wasn't
23 something you were going to take to the lake?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No, no, it was
25 something she had worn for a Christmas
0023
1 performance. It was a little Christmas thing.
2 TOM HANEY: When had she worn that?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: She had worn it --
4 well, she wore it, some of her pageant girls
5 performed together in a group, some Christmas
6 songs and things, down in a mall in Denver, she
7 wore it for that.
8 TOM HANEY: Okay, we are halfway
9 there.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I
11 mean -- I can try to find out.
12 TOM HANEY: Yeah, okay, couple of
13 days or--
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you know,
15 that's around Christmastime there. Looking for
16 -- what's her name?
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Is that Amerikids?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, that's what who
19 it was, yes. What's her name, I don't remember
20 her name.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Is that Dolan?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Dolan, exactly. She
23 would remember when that was. So she wore it
24 that day.
25 TOM HANEY: So you say she--
0024
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I had laid that out
2 or done something and the light was on here.
3 TOM HANEY: The laundry room light
4 was on here?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: The light here.
6 Yes. I was working there.
7 TOM HANEY: Okay, did you turn it
8 on?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
10 That could have been one that was left on, I
11 don't know. Sometimes we leave that one on.
12 TOM HANEY: Sometimes you do?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).
14 TOM HANEY: But you don't recall
15 that morning coming down into the dark or --
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TOM HANEY: So to the best of your
18 recollection, it was on, you think?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I would say either
20 that light was on or there were also some
21 sconces right here on the stairwell, which were
22 dimmed and oftentimes we would leave that on,
23 because it was dimly lit as a night light sort
24 of lighting area.
25 TOM HANEY: Okay.
0025
1 PATSY RAMSEY: So something I am
2 sure was on, because it wasn't pitch black
3 walking down.
4 TOM HANEY: How about JonBenet's
5 room, what was the condition of the room?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I remember
7 racing over and her door was just kind of
8 slightly ajar.
9 TOM HANEY: And you're
10 demonstrating what, three--
11 PATSY RAMSEY: 3, 4 inches, you
12 know.
13 TOM HANEY: Okay. Is that the way
14 you left it the night before?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, that's usually
16 the way I left it.
17 TOM HANEY: And is there a
18 particular reason?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I closed it
20 because if I did leave a light on out here, it
21 would shine pretty brightly into her room so I
22 close to make it a little darker in there. But
23 I want to leave it so if she needed me or called
24 out or something I could hear her, you know.
25 TOM HANEY: So that was the normal
0026
1 thing?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: That was the normal
3 thing to do.
4 TOM HANEY: Did you happen to look
5 in?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No. At that time, I
7 did not.
8 TOM HANEY: Did you happen to
9 notice if there was any light coming from
10 inside?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't notice.
12 Just nothing seemed unusual.
13 TOM HANEY: Okay. So we are still
14 at the ironing board and this little red outfit.
15 What do you do with that, how long does that
16 take?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Just, I don't know,
18 just a few minutes. And I don't know, I can't
19 remember what I was doing. I just remember I
20 was trying to get this bag ready to go to the
21 lake, I had two suitcases in here of the
22 children's things, I was trying to get ready,
23 because when we came back from the lake we were
24 going on to Disney and the Big Red Boat.
25 TOM HANEY: You're going to go to
0027
1 Charlevoix, am I saying that right?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Charlevoix.
3 TOM HANEY: You're going there the
4 26th at 7 in the morning. How long are you
5 going to stay there?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Just a couple of
7 days, I think, because we were due back, I think
8 we were supposed to leave on the Big Red Boat on
9 my birthday, which is the 29th. So would
10 that -- was that a Saturday?
11 TOM HANEY: I think Christmas was
12 -- 25th was a Wednesday, and so Sunday would
13 have been the 29th approximately.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, somewhere
15 around there. I just didn't have very much time
16 when we got back. So I was prepacking stuff
17 here. So --
18 TOM HANEY: Let me just keep you on
19 this. The Big Red Boat thing on the 29th, what
20 time were you going to leave for that, do you
21 recall?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: We had airline
23 flights out of Denver.
24 TOM HANEY: Commercial?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. It must be
0028
1 somewhere.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you remember what
3 carrier?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I think we
5 called Disney at a number you call, and they do
6 some sort of package thing, they put it
7 together, so I don't know, Delta, United or --
8 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: The point is we
10 didn't go from Charlevoix, we had to fly back
11 from Charlevoix to Denver to take a commercial
12 flight to Orlando.
13 TOM HANEY: And do you know when
14 you would have come back from Charlevoix?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Just like the day
16 before.
17 TOM HANEY: Okay. The 8th
18 approximately?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. Or it could
20 have, you -- yeah, I think that's right. I
21 just, I don't remember exactly whether we were
22 leaving on Saturday or Sunday, and we were going
23 to be on the Big Red Boat for my birthday.
24 TOM HANEY: Which was the plan?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE).
0029
1 TOM HANEY: So you're in the
2 laundry, you say you spent a couple of minutes
3 there, two, five?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably five or
5 ten. You know.
6 TOM HANEY: Okay.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, I had
8 some laundry in here. I know I was -- just was
9 here for a few minutes. And then I (INAUDIBLE.)
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay, Tom, could I
11 clarify one thing. So what's your estimate of
12 the total time you spent in the guest bedroom,
13 laundry room area before you started heading
14 down the stairs, what's your best estimate?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Five or ten
16 minutes.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay, thank you.
18 TOM HANEY: Now, we have the
19 diagram for the first floor.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
21 TOM HANEY: So you come -- you're
22 coming down the stairs. Are there any lights on
23 in that spiral staircase?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, just you know,
25 can't remember exactly. But I mean there was
0030
1 enough light -- it wasn't pitch black, in other
2 words. But there was either a light coming from
3 here somewhere or like I said, the sconce or
4 something. You know, interior stairwell.
5 TOM HANEY: Okay. And I don't
6 recall, and I was in the house but I didn't
7 notice, the sconces, are they high up, all the
8 way up and down?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: No, they are just
10 kind of wall sort of sconces. Those you could
11 dim, you know, raise or dim the light. So those
12 you know, that typically would be left on at
13 night. And you could dim them from here.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: Are they on the first
15 or second floor, the sconces?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: They go in between,
17 they are in the stairway.
18 Okay, I come down here, and you
19 know, some of the rooms are light here where
20 these three pieces of paper were.
21 TOM HANEY: Which -- let me steal
22 that from you. Which running of the stairs were
23 they on?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it wasn't the
25 bottom one. I would say it was like -- I mean I
0031
1 had to bend over, you know, to look at it, you
2 know.
3 TOM HANEY: And when you first see
4 it, what's your first reaction?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, my initial
6 reaction was that -- I mean, I probably would
7 stack things going upstairs, you know, shoes or
8 toys or whatever, that was -- and that would
9 take a load so there was typically always
10 something there, going one way or the other.
11 But this was laid out across the
12 tread, you know. This was laid out across the
13 treads, so I mean I just thought well, papers,
14 you know, John would have taken up to see or
15 something, I don't know. Thanks.
16 And then when I came down and
17 looked at it, glanced at it, my first reaction
18 was that it was a note from my cleaning lady.
19 TOM HANEY: Let me just stop you
20 there. You are kind of bounding down the stairs
21 I would imagine?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
23 TOM HANEY: Kind of get going?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
25 TOM HANEY: You come to it, you
0032
1 stop and you look and see -- you kind of bend
2 over from higher up?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I passed it,
4 then turned back around to turn to look and see
5 what it was.
6 TOM HANEY: Did you step over that
7 rung or--
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think I
9 stepped on it, because you know, you step on
10 paper, it kind of does that. So I somehow got
11 around it.
12 TOM HANEY: Okay. And the note,
13 and let me just hand you -- here is a copy of
14 the note. If you just lay it out for us here on
15 the table the way it was laid out.
16 (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
17 TOM HANEY: And that's if you're
18 looking from the bottom it would be on like you
19 said either the second--
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Like here to the
21 steps going up.
22 TOM HANEY: Okay. Now, was there
23 sufficient light from those sconces for you to
24 read it?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
0033
1 TOM HANEY: Do you wear glasses,
2 contacts?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I didn't then.
4 I do now, a little bit. For reading.
5 TOM HANEY: Okay. Can you -- do
6 you have your contacts in now?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't have
8 contacts, no.
9 TOM HANEY: Can you read this?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. You want me
11 to read it to you?
12 TOM HANEY: No, no, that's fine.
13 But could you read it then without any problem?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
15 TOM HANEY: So you see it. What do
16 you do?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I read -- I read
18 down to about, it says, "at this time we have
19 your daughter in our possession."
20 For some reason, I don't -- don't
21 ask me why but, I start --
22 TRIP DeMUTH: Don't count on him
23 not asking you why.
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I, my first flash
25 that was in my head was I thought it was Beth,
0034
1 our daughter, I don't know why I thought --
2 (INAUDIBLE), and then "daughter in our
3 possession, she is safe from harm, your daughter
4 in 1997," then when I realized this was now,
5 this was new material, this was not something --
6 you know, papers from that had to do with Beth.
7 And just I stopped and just went up the stairs.
8 TOM HANEY: When you bent down to
9 read it, did you pick it up or did you leave it
10 on the stair?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I just can't
12 remember exactly.
13 TOM HANEY: Well, and it would be a
14 little uncomfortable I would think to--
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I just kind of --
16 you know, and then I realized and went --
17 (Indicating).
18 TOM HANEY: So you left it in
19 that --
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I think I left
21 it --
22 TOM HANEY: -- approximate location
23 like it's laid out now?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
25 TOM HANEY: Okay. So as far as
0035
1 getting to the bottom of the stairs, that's as
2 far as you got?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I got -- I was
4 to the floor.
5 TOM HANEY: Okay.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I got down to the
7 floor here and turned around and looked at it.
8 TOM HANEY: Now --
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Tom, if that's not
10 clear, because the camera can't see it, it's
11 laid out pages 1, 2 and 3 left to right as you
12 were looking from the floor towards the stairs,
13 correct?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.
15 TOM HANEY: And you said that you
16 just read that first paragraph?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
18 TOM HANEY: And that's when you
19 stopped?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
21 TOM HANEY: Had you since or did
22 you that day read the rest of the note?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I read -- I
24 came back down and John had it, you know, on the
25 floor, and what not, and I was glancing at it,
0036
1 and somewhere I thought in there, because I
2 didn't read it line by line, I looked over to
3 see who it was from, and I didn't know who that
4 was. And somewhere I caught in there where it
5 said if you call some -- don't call the police
6 or -- wherever it said that.
7 Oh, here, police, FBI, et cetera,
8 your daughter being held. And I read that and I
9 mean, my blood just went cold. You know, I
10 couldn't --
11 TOM HANEY: That was some time
12 later?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it was kind of
14 all during, I mean after John came down and he
15 had the note and I was "God, what are we going
16 to do, what are we going to do?"
17 And he said, "call the police, call
18 911" and I was looking around reading but it
19 said don't do that. You know, what if they
20 heard, it said we got to call, call them, I mean
21 all this was like in minutes.
22 TOM HANEY: Have you ever since
23 that day read the entire note?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yes.
25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Probably on more
0037
1 than one occasion?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
3 TOM HANEY: And in looking at it,
4 these are the times when you have -- and looking
5 at it today, do you notice anything about it,
6 anything that you recognize, anything that looks
7 familiar, similar to anything you have seen
8 before?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: This M kind of looks
10 like an M that I have seen somebody make. I
11 don't know -- I have wracked my brain over this
12 a million times. But you know, everything else
13 was just, you know --
14 TOM HANEY: Do you notice any
15 similarities to, say, your style of indentation
16 and signing off and the use of exclamation
17 points, anything like that?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean, as you
19 know, I have had umpteen handwriting samples and
20 they all want to say that, you know, my A's look
21 like this or --
22 TOM HANEY: I am not talking so
23 much about the handwriting itself. I am talking
24 about the style of the "Mr. Ramsey"?
25 Introduction, the indentation, the signing off
0038
1 at the end?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
3 TOM HANEY: No? Similar to your
4 style?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I usually sign
6 "regards" or something like that. "Love".
7 TOM HANEY: So you see the note,
8 you read that portion, you're at the bottom of
9 the stairs, then you start back up?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I ran up.
11 TOM HANEY: Before that, that's
12 right. But before -- what was the first thing
13 you do? Do you say something, do you do
14 something?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I realized that and
16 I went bounding up the stairs to her room and
17 pushed the door open. I mean pushing the door,
18 I did not go through it, I just pushed it open
19 and saw she wasn't in her bed.
20 TOM HANEY: Let's -- now you
21 said -- here is a different marker. We will use
22 a green one. Coming back up the stairs, so
23 you're coming up from the first floor, now we
24 are on the second floor.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay, I came up,
0039
1 bounding up here. Over to here, pushed the door
2 open. She wasn't there. I ran under --
3 TOM HANEY: Let me just stop you
4 there. When you pushed the door open, was there
5 a light on in the room?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: There was -- her
7 lamp light was not on. You know, there was
8 enough light that I could tell she wasn't in her
9 bed. Now, whether that was coming from the
10 laundry area, whether daylight was breaking or
11 whether there was -- you know, sometime we left
12 a little night light here on in her bathroom, so
13 you know, I -- all I know is I was able to see
14 that there is no one lying in that bed and the
15 covers are ruffled.
16 TOM HANEY: Did you go past that
17 door?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
19 TOM HANEY: You didn't enter that
20 room at all?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
22 TOM HANEY: Did you -- did you
23 think that possibly she had gotten out of the
24 bed, was somewhere else in the room you didn't--
25 PATSY RAMSEY: It just happened so
0040
1 fast, and I, you know, read that letter and said
2 "we have your daughter", your mind goes berserk.
3 I mean I was -- and then I went up there and my
4 child is not in the bed. You know, I didn't,
5 nothing against your questioning, but no, I
6 didn't stand around and say I wonder if she is
7 in here, I wonder if she is in there. I
8 screamed for John.
9 TOM HANEY: Okay, and that's why
10 you were standing here?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I am going this way
12 and I lean on and said John -- you know, the
13 landing is like here, is like this, then it
14 turns and like that. And I leaned over, I mean
15 my knees were like, you know, buckling. And oh,
16 God, and he came down and I said, "she's gone,
17 she's gone, there is a note, she's been
18 kidnapped."
19 TOM HANEY: So you're here at the
20 base of the stairs?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
22 TOM HANEY: You scream for John?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding with no
24 audible response).
25 TOM HANEY: Do you remember exactly
0041
1 what words you used, was it more than just John
2 or--
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I remember my voice
4 was just cracking. I mean it was like "John",
5 like that. I mean like, I can't even, you know,
6 I hear my scream and I hear his scream when he
7 came up from the basement, I mean it was just a
8 horrible thing. You know, it was just --
9 TOM HANEY: Where does John, and we
10 will use a red marker now for John, where does
11 he first appear in there, at least in this
12 diagram, if you can start there?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: He comes down those
14 stairs there. (Indicating) and so we are both
15 like standing here, I am pacing, I said oh, my
16 God, you know there is a note, she's been
17 kidnapped. She is not in her bed, you know.
18 You know, then everything gets really you know,
19 who's on first kind of thing.
20 TOM HANEY: So you made two little
21 X's in red. They are near the base of the
22 stairs. And that's where you two have this
23 conversation?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
25 TOM HANEY: What is John's -- how
0042
1 is he dressed?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: He is in his
3 underwear.
4 TOM HANEY: Just shorts or--
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
6 TOM HANEY: Okay. And what
7 conversation, what does he say to you?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: God, I can't
9 remember.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay. He still hasn't
11 felt the impact of this, right?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No. He said, "you
13 know, slowdown" or "what is it, what is it", and
14 I said, you know, "I went downstairs, there is a
15 letter, says she's been kidnapped."
16 And he said, "where is the letter?"
17 I said -- I think I said, "oh, my
18 God, Burke" or something. And I think he ran in
19 to start to check on Burke.
20 TOM HANEY: So let's just do
21 this --
22 PATSY RAMSEY: And I said, "there
23 is a letter downstairs. "
24 TOM HANEY: So you--
25 PATSY RAMSEY: And I think I went
0043
1 down and got it. I just can't remember
2 everything.
3 TOM HANEY: To the best of your
4 recollection, we will just take a second here,
5 again with the red marker, let's indicate where
6 John goes? You said he goes to check on Burke?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: I think he went to
8 check on Burke.
9 TOM HANEY: Would you just draw
10 where he goes and then he leaves your sight so--
11 PATSY RAMSEY: He's not leaving my
12 sight. You know, he went through the first
13 room, he went this way.
14 TOM HANEY: Did he say he was going
15 to go check on Burke or did you tell him to, or
16 do you recall?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I just don't recall.
18 TOM HANEY: He leaves presumably,
19 to do that. You're standing here still, you're
20 the other red X. What do you do?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I went back
22 downstairs.
23 TOM HANEY: Maybe this time with a
24 broken line you can just indicate going back
25 down.
0044
1 (MS. RAMSEY COMPLIES.)
2 TOM HANEY: You're still the green
3 one. You come down the spiral stairs. The note
4 is--
5 PATSY RAMSEY: The note is --
6 TOM HANEY: -- same place,
7 different place?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Somewhere in this
9 area, maybe still on the floor or something, you
10 know. I don't know what happened to it exactly
11 when I bounded upstairs. I think it was right
12 there somewhere.
13 TOM HANEY: The second time you
14 don't recall exactly where it was?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it was
16 laying around on the floor here somewhere or
17 something. After I went up the stairs. It was
18 there somewhere. I know I came down here, and I
19 either handed it to John or he went in and
20 picked it up. Anyway I came over to the phone.
21 TOM HANEY: Let's stop there. He
22 came down the stairs. He has already gone to
23 presumably to check on her --
24 (Multiple speakers.)
25 TOM HANEY: And you come down here?
0045
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
2 TOM HANEY: So you get down there,
3 he is not there. I assume, John?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
5 TOM HANEY: Okay. What do you do
6 between the time you get down there and the time
7 that he does show up?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Just kind of
9 standing around in here. You know. I was
10 screaming and crying and --
11 TOM HANEY: Okay, and what -- okay,
12 what were you screaming, what were you saying?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I said, "oh, my God
14 how did they get in, why don't we hear
15 anything," you know, "where were they, how could
16 this happen?" I mean I was just --
17 TOM HANEY: So you're not reading
18 the note then?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
20 TOM HANEY: You're just wandering
21 around in this area?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
23 TOM HANEY: And that's the area
24 just--
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Like the --
0046
1 TOM HANEY: -- south of the spiral
2 stairs?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. This, the
4 little bar, sort of like in this little area. I
5 was just like, you know, indicating (INAUDIBLE).
6 TOM HANEY: And where do you see
7 John, when did you see him next? Use red for
8 him?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I don't know
10 how -- I mean the next thing I remember, I
11 was -- he was saying, "call the police, call the
12 police," he had the note and he was kneeling
13 right here.
14 TOM HANEY: Okay, let's stop you
15 again. You're in here and I understand --
16 understandably you're pacing around?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
18 TOM HANEY: And screaming. When
19 and where do you see John?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: In this area
21 (indicating).
22 TOM HANEY: And what is he doing
23 there?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: He said -- you know,
25 I said "there is the note." I think I handed
0047
1 him the note here, somehow in this space he got
2 the note.
3 TOM HANEY: Okay, let's just put an
4 X on this main floor diagram, where you first
5 see John again.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay, right here.
7 TOM HANEY: So you don't know if he
8 went to check on Burke, came down the front
9 stairs and then came down through the kitchen?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
11 TOM HANEY: But he appears there?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
13 TOM HANEY: Take that back just --
14 what discussion do you two have there?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean I was just
16 saying, "how did they get in, how did this
17 happen, who would do this?"
18 You know, screaming, screaming.
19 "What's the note say?"
20 John is saying "call 911, call
21 911."
22 TOM HANEY: Now that was his
23 initial response?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
25 TOM HANEY: Was that before or
0048
1 after he had a chance to read the note?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, he was crouched
3 on his knees here in his underwear. He laid the
4 papers out right there, 1, 2, 3 and was reading
5 it like this.
6 TOM HANEY: Let me back you up
7 again. You said a minute ago something to the
8 effect that maybe you went and got him the note.
9 Do you know how he--
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know
11 exactly. Maybe he will remember. But I mean I
12 left the note somewhere here, whether I picked
13 it up and threw it down, just took off. And
14 then came back down the stairs, and whether I
15 picked it up, and then he came down, I gave it
16 to him. And said here's the note or whatever.
17 TOM HANEY: Now are you just
18 guessing or do you know--
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I can't remember
20 exactly.
21 TOM HANEY: Okay.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: But I know I left
23 the note here and then when he came I was
24 walking around here, he picked up the note or
25 had the note somehow, was down on the floor
0049
1 reading it.
2 TOM HANEY: And again the area we
3 are talking about you have marked with an X
4 where you see him.
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
6 TOM HANEY: Would you just show us
7 where those pages are, put a 1, 2, and 3 how
8 they are laid out?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Here he was facing
10 this one.
11 TOM HANEY: He is facing to the
12 south and that's according to the north on the
13 diagram?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
15 TOM HANEY: Okay, he is there, he
16 was in his underwear on his hands and knees. I
17 think that's a wood floor there?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
19 TOM HANEY: Okay. Is there a light
20 on there then?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, just this hall
22 light here.
23 TOM HANEY: Do you recall did you
24 or he turn it on?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
0050
1 TOM HANEY: Where are you while he
2 is doing that?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I am on the phone
4 right here. Phone right here.
5 TOM HANEY: Let's just put a T for
6 the telephone there?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: (COMPLIES WITH
8 REQUEST).
9 TOM HANEY: And you're standing
10 right there. You already said that John told
11 you call 911?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
13 TOM HANEY: And then you walk over
14 to the phone?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
16 TOM HANEY: And he is doing what?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: He's on his hands
18 like this (indicating), on his -- like crouched
19 on his knees, reading it.
20 TOM HANEY: And what is he saying?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Nothing much. He
22 said, "call the police, we have got to call the
23 police."
24 TOM HANEY: And how does he say it,
25 is it like that?
0051
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Just like that.
2 TOM HANEY: Cool?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Pretty --
4 TOM HANEY: He is pretty cool and
5 calm?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I was nuts, he
7 was -- I mean shaking but he was trying to --
8 TOM HANEY: You say you were nuts?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
10 TOM HANEY: Are you still
11 screaming, yelling, crying?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I mean I was
13 just in shock. You know, you know, just how did
14 they get in, who did this, my God, what are we
15 going to do?
16 TOM HANEY: Now, the phone that's
17 there, that's a fixed phone?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding, no audible
19 answer).
20 TOM HANEY: And the phone number
21 there for that phone, do you recall? Let me ask
22 it another way. Are there other phone lines
23 into the house, do you have more than one
24 number?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, I can't
0052
1 remember. We had a fax machine up in John's
2 office. And the computer, although we never go
3 on the Internet on that, I don't think. I don't
4 know. I think it's just one.
5 TOM HANEY: Just one, possibly a
6 second for the fax and the computer or the
7 modem?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I can't
9 remember. I think there was only one. It seems
10 like when we got a fax I had to run upstairs and
11 turn the fax machine on, because they come on
12 the same line. I mean the phone had 6 buttons
13 set or something but that was the previous
14 owners that had that put in.
15 TOM HANEY: To the best of your
16 knowledge just the one line?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I think we just had
18 one.
19 TOM HANEY: One number? Okay.
20 Now, I have to stop you here because at my house
21 if there is an emergency, if there is a problem
22 and my wife is screaming and yelling and
23 panicked, I wouldn't have her call anybody.
24 Because they would never figure out what she is
25 saying. And it sounds like you're in kind of an
0053
1 emotional state, and John, he is the CEO, he is
2 cool, he is calm, he is down there, he is
3 processing this note and he tells you to call
4 911?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
6 TOM HANEY: It just seems kind of
7 odd to me. What --
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know whether
9 it's odd or not, but that's what happened.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, you know, I
12 had it together enough to call. And I said,
13 this is Patsy Ramsey at 755 15th Street or
14 whatever. She I think she was trying to make
15 sure I got it out, you know.
16 TOM HANEY: In fact, you got it out
17 pretty good, you got the address which a lot of
18 callers who call the police, who call 911 --
19 PATSY RAMSEY: -- can't remember
20 their names.
21 TOM HANEY: Well, they don't give
22 the address. You seemed to give the address
23 pretty quick. When you called did you practice
24 this, did you rehearse, did you think about what
25 you were going to say?
0054
1 PATSY RAMSEY: No, no, just
2 instantaneously, you know.
3 TOM HANEY: Okay, and it just came
4 out like that. So John is down there reading it
5 and you call 911. You have this conversation
6 with them. What happens at the end of that?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: When I hung up, they
8 said they would send somebody out, and I don't
9 know, I think John went to get dressed. I was
10 you know, was just pacing around here praying.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: You say he was in his
12 underwear.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: What does underwear
15 consist of?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: His briefs.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Anything else?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: So he was otherwise
20 naked except for his briefs?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Correct.
22 TOM HANEY: Now with the green
23 again, if you could just mark, you say you were
24 just kind of pacing. Is that through the
25 kitchen area?
0055
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
2 TOM HANEY: If you would just draw
3 a line through there?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: (Ms. Ramsey
5 complies.)
6 TOM HANEY: You said John leaves
7 your sight?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
9 TOM HANEY: Do you know where he
10 goes then?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, not exactly.
12 I just presume he went up to get dressed,
13 because he came back downstairs dressed.
14 TOM HANEY: How long was he gone?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. Oh, I
16 don't know. Ten minutes. I am just guessing.
17 I mean, I wasn't watching my clock or anything.
18 TOM HANEY: Absolutely. So do you
19 know, does he go back up the back stairs?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know for
21 sure. But very likely.
22 TOM HANEY: Do you know, did he
23 take the note with him?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
25 TOM HANEY: So you're just pacing
0056
1 and you have indicated between the front door
2 and the telephone area on the west side of the
3 kitchen.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding with no
5 audible response).
6 TOM HANEY: And John leaves your
7 sight?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
9 TOM HANEY: Is there any discussion
10 with him before he goes about what he's going to
11 do or what you're going to do?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I remember.
13 TOM HANEY: Then he's gone for you
14 say five or ten minutes. Where do you next see
15 him? I just ask you to put a circle.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Circle this time.
17 TOM HANEY: A circle where he is
18 when you next see him?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, probably in this
20 area, when the officer came we kind of both met
21 him there.
22 TOM HANEY: So you didn't, between
23 the time that you hung up the phone and he left,
24 you don't see John again until about the time
25 the officer shows?
0057
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that's the
2 first time I remember seeing him.
3 TOM HANEY: Let's take a minute and
4 think about it. Because it seems like from the
5 prior statement that he had done some things or
6 that you had guys had had some discussions about
7 him checking doors?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, well, you
9 know, he did that when I was pacing back here,
10 "how did he get in, how did he get in?"
11 I remember John checking this door
12 and that was usually always unlocked because
13 that goes to the garage.
14 TOM HANEY: Was this prior to the
15 phone call to 911?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: This probably was.
17 You know, we were just right in there. You
18 know, I just don't -- this all happened so fast.
19 TOM HANEY: So at some point there,
20 though, he checks that door to--
21 PATSY RAMSEY: He checks that, I
22 think he checked this one.
23 TOM HANEY: Okay, let's stick with
24 the garage door first, the walk-in door. What
25 did he do to check that?
0058
1 PATSY RAMSEY: He opened the door
2 and kind of jiggled the handle, you know, to see
3 whether it was locked or not.
4 TOM HANEY: Is it normally locked?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: It's normally
6 unlocked, because this is the garage door and
7 that's where you come in.
8 TOM HANEY: So checking that and
9 moving the handle--
10 PATSY RAMSEY: It sometimes
11 accidentally gets locked, and we get locked out,
12 but typically it's left open, left unlocked.
13 TOM HANEY: Is it just a little
14 button to--
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
16 TOM HANEY: When you turn that to
17 go out and it will lock itself?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
19 TOM HANEY: But he checks that?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
21 TOM HANEY: And then after that you
22 said he checked this other door, that door on
23 the south side between the study and the
24 kitchen?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I think he did
0059
1 that.
2 TOM HANEY: Would you just indicate
3 a line then indicating his travel from the
4 garage door to the--
5 PATSY RAMSEY: He went to check
6 that door and then checked this door.
7 TOM HANEY: Okay. Is there more--
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Or vice versa, you
9 know, I think he might have even have gone down
10 to this door.
11 TOM HANEY: Did you say see him go
12 down there or was your feeling or you remember
13 him going down that way?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I just kind of -- I
15 mean, I was just out of my mind, I am crying, I
16 am crying, I am stammering, and he is like
17 walking around everywhere, like checking -- sort
18 of checking around.
19 TOM HANEY: And you think he
20 checked that door?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I think he went down
22 there.
23 TRIP DeMUTH: Why?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: That's just, this
25 house has so darn many doors, you know, just to
0060
1 see if that was left unlocked or something or
2 maybe I don't --
3 TRIP DeMUTH: Take a moment and try
4 to remember what it is you remember about him
5 going down there.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I just seem to
7 remember him walking down the stairs. Because I
8 don't know that I actually saw him, you know,
9 but I vaguely remember him --
10 TRIP DeMUTH: You do have a memory
11 of him going down the stairs towards the butler
12 kitchen?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: I think so. I
14 can't say for sure, but I think so.
15 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. The garage
16 door, did you ask her if it was locked or
17 unlocked?
18 TOM HANEY: Yeah, but go ahead.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know
20 whether it was or not, but typically we left
21 that unlocked.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: You don't know what
23 condition it was in?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: What about the south
0061
1 door?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
3 TOM HANEY: Did you yourself check
4 any doors?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
6 TOM HANEY: Or John checked two
7 that we know of, the garage and this south door
8 and possibly--
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Possibly that one.
10 TOM HANEY: Did he ever tell you
11 that he checked that butler door?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
13 TOM HANEY: So he is checking those
14 doors and that would have been the, to put this
15 in sequence, prior to your 911 call.
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I don't know
17 if it was prior or not. No, no. I think I
18 called the 911 pretty quick, because he was
19 still in his underwear. And I think when he was
20 checking those doors he was dressed.
21 TOM HANEY: Okay, all right. So--
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean this
23 happened, you know, within minutes of all of
24 this going upstairs here.
25 TOM HANEY: Almost immediately?
0062
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Almost immediately.
2 TOM HANEY: That you're on that
3 phone?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
5 TOM HANEY: And then he is reading
6 the note and then is that when he is checking
7 the doors or are you saying that he was dressed
8 when he was checking them?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Gosh, I don't know I
10 don't remember exactly. It's been a long time.
11 These are the kinds of questions I wish we could
12 have done way the hell a long time ago.
13 TOM HANEY: Absolutely.
14 PATSY RAMSEY: They are now but --
15 TOM HANEY: As we are--
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe he can
17 remember. I just remember by this time I am
18 hysterical.
19 TOM HANEY: And as we are going
20 through this, if there were things that you
21 remember specifically, those are the important
22 things. If it's something that somebody else
23 has helped jog your memory, whether it's someone
24 you talked to or something you have seen or
25 read, you know, we want to be able to
0063
1 distinguish between those; okay. All right.
2 So we have made the phone call, we
3 have checked some doors and the exact sequence
4 of the door checking we are not sure of, but
5 you're again standing in this area between the
6 front door and there. Can you say how long
7 before the officer arrived?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: God, it seemed like
9 forever, though I am sure it was fairly quickly.
10 I mean seconds are hours, you know.
11 TOM HANEY: Sure. Do you ever
12 again leave this floor after you made that 911
13 call? Do you go anywhere else, do you go down
14 the stairs to the basement?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
16 TOM HANEY: You don't go anywhere
17 else yourself?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I mostly went over
19 here, by that time I told you I called the
20 Whites and Fernies, they came.
21 TOM HANEY: You called the Whites
22 and the Fernies. Do you recall who first or--
23 PATSY RAMSEY: I think I called the
24 Whites first.
25 TOM HANEY: Were they closer to
0064
1 you?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, we had just
3 gone there the night before, you know, and --
4 and I just dialed them up. They and the Fernies
5 were like our best friends, you know.
6 TOM HANEY: Let's take the call to
7 the Whites first. I think that was the
8 sequence?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I think so.
10 TOM HANEY: And you called them.
11 Who answered, what is said?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I think Priscilla
13 answered. And I mean, I don't know what I said
14 exactly. But somehow communicated to her that
15 JonBenet was gone and had been kidnapped and
16 could they come over. I don't know. I was just
17 hysterical.
18 Then I hung up the phone and called
19 the Fernies. And I believe John Fernie
20 answered.
21 TOM HANEY: Do you recall exactly
22 what you told him?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: I said -- I said --
24 I am not sure if I told him -- I just can't
25 remember what I told. "Oh, please, you got to
0065
1 come, please can you bring someone over" or
2 something. I don't remember.
3 TOM HANEY: And understanding that
4 they are close friends, but did you think that,
5 give any thought to having all this traffic
6 coming over?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
8 TOM HANEY: Folks coming to the
9 house?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
11 TOM HANEY: You had gotten through
12 that portion of the note that talked about don't
13 call the police, the FBI?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
15 TOM HANEY: We are watching you or
16 something like that?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I know.
18 TOM HANEY: How long does it take
19 for them to get over there?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it would have
21 been just pretty quick.
22 TOM HANEY: How much after the
23 arrival of the first officer?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Not much. Just, I
25 don't know, 15 minutes, you know.
0066
1 TOM HANEY: Let me back you up
2 again. We talked about that phone, possible
3 phone lines. Did you folks at that time have
4 any other phones, any cell phones, cellular--
5 PATSY RAMSEY: John had a cell
6 phone. And I had just gotten a cell phone at
7 Christmas, little teeny one.
8 TOM HANEY: Was it activated?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's
10 activated when you buy it.
11 TOM HANEY: It's not much of a
12 present if it doesn't work?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I think it was
14 activated.
15 TOM HANEY: Probably. Do you
16 recall the phone number?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
18 TOM HANEY: How about John's cell
19 phone, do you recall that number?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
21 TOM HANEY: Did he have just the
22 one, was that a personal one?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: He had had one and
24 he lost it. See, I had gotten him one years
25 ago, and he -- I think he lost and then --
0067
1 anyway, I had gotten this little teeny Panasonic
2 one at, what's that store -- that music video
3 store near the Boulder. Sound Tracks, one of
4 those, Sound Advice or -- and I had it -- I had
5 it sitting on the window ledge charging and he
6 walked in and found it, I said okay fine, I will
7 just take this one.
8 And I think meanwhile, Denise, his
9 secretary had ordered him a new phone.
10 TOM HANEY: Okay, was that an Access
11 Graphics phone?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Access Graphics, yes. I
13 mean there were a couple of phones and they were
14 both relatively new and I don't know what the
15 number was.
16 TOM HANEY: And where were they
17 normally kept?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
19 TOM HANEY: His--
20 PATSY RAMSEY: His was usually
21 charging somewhere, probably in his briefcase or
22 something.
23 TOM HANEY: Did he have a charger
24 set up somewhere though or--
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Um, I don't
0068
1 remember.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay. And between the
3 time that you folks had returned from the Whites
4 on Christmas night, and this call to the Boulder
5 police in the morning, on the 26th, had you made
6 or received any phone calls on any of those
7 lines?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I recall,
9 no.
10 TOM HANEY: Of course anything that
11 would have disturbed your sleep you would have
12 recalled that?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yeah.
14 TOM HANEY: Anything major in that
15 time frame?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you ever go
18 up and check on Burke, you yourself?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yeah. I mean,
20 you mean like that or --
21 TOM HANEY: This morning, the 26th.
22 Let's get you back there. We are still pacing
23 around?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I don't
25 think I did. I think John said he was fine
0069
1 and -- I can't -- I just can't recall that I
2 did.
3 TOM HANEY: Okay. So do you recall
4 at what point you and John had this discussion
5 about Burke, you said he said Burke was fine?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Somewhere in this
7 bedlam, you know, that was --
8 TOM HANEY: Okay, and again, prior
9 to or after the arrival of the officers?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably prior to.
11 TOM HANEY: Okay. So he goes quiet
12 then when you see him down there again that's in
13 fact what he had done?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: That's right.
15 TOM HANEY: When he was upstairs.
16 All right, you lost sight of him on the second
17 floor. So Burke is fine, you don't go up there.
18 The officer comes and then you say he takes you
19 into the solarium. If you would again, just
20 mark--
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean I think that
22 we talked a little bit here and sort of moved
23 over this way.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: And in here is that
25 --
0070
1 PATSY RAMSEY: That's the foyer.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: The foyer, okay.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, in
4 there somewhere.
5 TOM HANEY: And you said that the
6 Whites and the Fernies joined you shortly after
7 that. Do they also come in here in this
8 solarium area?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE). We
10 were -- we were kind -- we were in this area
11 here. I mean, I don't remember where we were at
12 any one point. A lot of people started coming
13 in, two older women from -- I don't know where
14 they were from. They were like helpers. A
15 helper.
16 TOM HANEY: Directory assistance
17 folks (difficult to understand)?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Right, these older
19 ladies, they were in here, and I was just in
20 here, this is like my little area.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: The solarium.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: I just hover,
23 when I was sick, I recouped a lot in there
24 and I was just in there praying and
25 praying and praying and then Linda Arndt
0071
1 came, she introduced herself to me and
2 said they were going to set up the wire
3 tap so then John was with her and kind of
4 taking care of business, they were all
5 back in here.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: This study?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
8 TOM HANEY: Anything else?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Father Rol came, he
10 was standing right here praying.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: The living room?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: The living room.
13 TOM HANEY: Let me just set this
14 aside and make sure, we will come back to all of
15 these later, but we will take just kind of a
16 break from that and what I want to do is talk
17 for a couple of minutes about various people who
18 have come up in this investigation, various
19 names.
20 TRIP DeMUTH: Do you want to take a
21 break before we do this?
22 TOM HANEY: It's about 10:19 and we
23 will take a break now, five, ten, somewhere.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
25 (Recess taken).
0072
1 TOM HANEY: Okay, we are back on
2 tape. I have 10:30. And before we go into the
3 names that I mentioned, we do have a couple of
4 follow-up questions.
5 One, would the children normally go
6 downstairs if they woke up or would they stay on
7 their floor or--
8 PATSY RAMSEY: They would typically
9 stay on their floor. They had a TV, play room,
10 stay on that floor.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: So in the middle of
12 the night did they ever go downstairs, if they
13 woke up in the night would they go down into the
14 kitchen, let's say?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: And could you hear
17 them go to the bathroom?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I could hear
19 Burke go to the bathroom, because his
20 bathroom is sort of more toward the end of
21 our bedroom.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: How about
23 JonBenet?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: I wouldn't hear her
25 go.
0073
1 TRIP DeMUTH: Could you hear her
2 toilet flush or anything, the plumbing?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Could you hear
5 the garage door from your bedroom go up and
6 down?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
8 TRIP DeMUTH: Go ahead, Tom.
9 TOM HANEY: In the earlier
10 interview, and I think it was the one on April
11 30 last year, the Whites' name came up as
12 because they were formerly very good friends
13 that you called that morning, but people that
14 you were now suspicious of or something about
15 their behavior.
16 Could you tell us what about them
17 has changed and what you have noticed?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I guess --
19 every --
20 TOM HANEY: Be candid.
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, everything
22 that -- you know, I mean, everything. Our
23 relationship was perfectly normal and fine, and
24 like I said, there are close friends who called
25 first thing that morning. And it was a very
0074
1 traumatic morning, obviously, for everyone
2 there. And people handled things differently,
3 and I know that -- but, suffice to say that
4 Fleet and Priscilla, Fleet probably more so,
5 just on a number of different occasions started
6 reacting very strangely.
7 TOM HANEY: Okay. How did he
8 react?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Well --
10 TOM HANEY: What did he react to.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I guess the
12 first -- let's see. The first time -- I mean,
13 you know, after we found JonBenet, I mean I was
14 just in shock and really was -- was not paying
15 too much attention to things. But the first
16 time I really realized that something was amiss
17 was when we were going to go to Atlanta for the
18 funeral on the Lockheed plane, and there was
19 some like scuttle, confusion or something, why
20 Fleet was not going on that plane. I mean our
21 close friends that had been basically -- you
22 know, I don't know what they were doing, John
23 and my girlfriends were bathing me and feeding
24 me and taking me to the bathroom. I mean I was
25 just immobile for all intents and purposes.
0075
1 And -- and I just remember hearing
2 something that John Fernie was going to detain
3 Fleet because he was in no condition to be put
4 on that plane.
5 TOM HANEY: No condition due to?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: He was -- and like I
7 say, I am kind of like just catching, you know,
8 wafts of these conversations. But that was my
9 first recollection. I picked up on something
10 that Fleet was not acting right. And they were
11 going to keep him from going on the private
12 plane back to Atlanta.
13 So anyway, I didn't want to think
14 too much about it, and then when we were in
15 Atlanta, I just sort of remember Priscilla
16 standing in my mother's living room, family
17 room, you know, just kind of like this and
18 saying, "well, I know what's going on" and she
19 said, "if you would give me a few minutes of
20 your time, I could let you in on some things."
21 And I turned to her and I said,
22 "Priscilla, how can you know so much?" And I
23 said, "I am the mother of this child. And I
24 know nothing."
25 TOM HANEY: What was she referring
0076
1 to?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't have a clue.
3 I really, I mean, you know, so many times I wish
4 I would have taken her up on it to see what the
5 hell she was talking about. There was just her
6 -- you know, it was just this kind of, I know
7 what's going on here and you don't. And if you
8 give me a few minutes of your time, I could clue
9 you in.
10 TOM HANEY: But she didn't give you
11 a clue or--
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Didn't say, didn't
13 say. So that was like the second little thing.
14 So then, let's see. We were at --
15 we were at my parents, and we had different
16 friends who had come in from Colorado and my
17 friends in Atlanta were putting them up in homes
18 and what not, and my understanding is that Fleet
19 and Priscilla had been invited by my brother and
20 sister-in-law Jeff Ramsey to stay in their home.
21 So I was in bed, and somebody,
22 either my sister, or another friend who was
23 staying there or something, said that Jeff had
24 just called to my parents' home, and said that
25 Fleet was totally off the deep end, had like
0077
1 gotten my brother-in-law and my brother-in-law
2 is -- you think my husband is docile, my
3 brother-in-law is, you know, very docile. Non-
4 confrontational. So Fleet got hold of Jeff's
5 collar, you know, like this, in his face, you
6 know, being very confrontational.
7 TOM HANEY: Is built --
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Sorry?
9 TOM HANEY: Is Fleet a pretty good
10 size?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, he's a large
12 man. And anyway, Jeff had called and said to my
13 dad, they are on their way to your house. Do
14 you have a gun? And I mean for Jeff Ramsey to
15 say something like this in pretty wild. So I
16 just remember, you know, somebody scooping me up
17 and Burke up and my mom and all this and we went
18 downstairs to our basement where my mother had
19 set up some temporary beds and then like, you
20 know, like thrown on the beds, like "don't
21 anybody say anything" and you know, John and my
22 dad were going to try to calm them down or
23 something. You know. Just --
24 TOM HANEY: Okay. What do you mean
25 again, what did--
0078
1 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know, Jeff
2 was saying that Fleet is just crazy. He is
3 crazy, he is coming over there, I don't know
4 what's happened. You know, he's off his rocker.
5 TOM HANEY: Did he give you a clue
6 though? I mean here your good friends--
7 PATSY RAMSEY: See, I don't know,
8 because I wasn't -- wasn't having this --
9 TOM HANEY: The conversation?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: I am like hearing
11 this thirdhand.
12 TOM HANEY: Okay.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: All I know is there
14 was like some big hubbub here about Fleet and
15 Priscilla were going nutso and they were coming
16 over and somebody just crazy, he is crazy, he is
17 coming over there, I don't know what's happened.
18 You know, he's off his rocker.
19 TOM HANEY: Did he give you a clue
20 though? I mean here your good friend's--
21 PATSY RAMSEY: See, I don't know
22 because I wasn't, I wasn't having this
23 conversation.
24 TOM HANEY: The conversation?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I am like hearing
0079
1 this thirdhand.
2 TOM HANEY: Okay.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: All I know is this
4 was like some big hubbub here about Fleet and
5 Priscilla are going nutso and they are coming
6 over and everybody is afraid of them and
7 da-de-da-de-da.
8 TOM HANEY: So do they come over?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: They came over. I
10 do not see them, but John I think called down or
11 something, Jeff Ramsey said he did not want them
12 staying with them. I think John Ramsey and my
13 dad somehow got them to stay in a hotel or
14 something. There in Montreux (phonetic).
15 Then my dad said, you know, I don't
16 know what day this was, all these days were
17 running together. But then my father said that
18 Priscilla called, I guess they were on their way
19 back to Colorado, she called, my dad had just
20 reamed him out, said that she didn't like what
21 she saw in Atlanta one bit. She thought that
22 everything -- that all our friends were, you
23 know, hoity-toity, rich snobs and blah, blah,
24 blah. I mean, just like crazy things.
25 I mean, you know, here we are
0080
1 mourning the death of this child, for crying out
2 loud, and she goes off on this cultural
3 ventilation or something. You know, it just
4 didn't, it didn't make sense. And then so I
5 mean my dad -- (INAUDIBLE) -- so way that was
6 kind of a little incident.
7 TOM HANEY: Makes sense.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: And then so I mean
9 my dad is one (INAUDIBLE) so anyway, that was
10 kind of a little incident. But I think some
11 other things happened that I wasn't really privy
12 to. I think John may be more aware of.
13 But then the other time that was
14 really frightening to me is, we had come back to
15 Colorado and John and I were in Father Rol's
16 office, in the church, and my dad was sitting
17 out in the little waiting area. And Father Rol
18 and John and I were praying, and Fleet White
19 burst into the door, burst into the office.
20 And he is just, his eyes are just
21 wild. And you know, I kind of did this number,
22 and he got down on his knees, and looked like --
23 and had a business card in his hand, and he was
24 leaning over to my husband saying, "you know
25 what this is, John, you know what this means,
0081
1 John, you know what I am going to have to do
2 with this, John, I am going to have to handle
3 this my way, John."
4 I mean he was just on and on and
5 on. And I said, "Fleet, Fleet, what is it?"
6 And he handed me this business card
7 and it was a business card from some journalist
8 or something, and it had a note on the back.
9 And it said, I don't know exactly word for word,
10 but something to the effect of, you know, Mr.
11 White, there has been some question as to
12 whether it was you or John Ramsey who removed
13 the tape from JonBenet's mouth. You know. And
14 about the sequence of the basement discovery.
15 Because we had talking about this.
16 Well, he said they are after me and
17 my family now, John, I am going to have to
18 handle -- and he was just like a maniac and
19 Father Rol said to calm down and you know, he
20 said, "I am going to handle it my way, John, my
21 way, John and you know, Father Rol was just
22 trying to get them to calm down. "It's okay
23 Fleet," you know, "what do you mean by your
24 way?" You know, calm down. You know, it will
25 be okay.
0082
1 So that was just, that just shook
2 me, you know, and then there are just -- you
3 know, may or may not know just kind of
4 subsequent things, like instead of going to the
5 governor in Colorado they went to the governor
6 of Colorado and asked that Hunter be taken off
7 the case or that he was doing a bad job or
8 something, and I mean this is like a year later,
9 you know, and I mean they are still just -- so,
10 I mean, you know, I am trying to say okay,
11 everybody was traumatized, you know. Try to put
12 my shoe on the other foot.
13 If had been Daphne, if I had been
14 there, what would I have done, you know. But I
15 mean, my God, you know, it's my child, and I
16 have been trying to get my family back to some
17 semblance of normalcy. My child in the school
18 and friends and you know. And I don't read
19 newspapers, and I can't watch television,
20 because it you know, value else me and surfaces
21 it all over again. You know, and then to hear
22 these people who are not even related and they
23 are going to the governor and trying to you know
24 I mean just kind of weird to me.
25 Maybe I am reading things into it.
0083
1 I don't know. I can't imagine, you know, that
2 anybody that has children -- you know, when you
3 have children you know what a precious life that
4 is, and you know what a -- you know, I can't
5 imagine that you can do that to another child.
6 I can't -- I can't bring myself to think that
7 they would have actually done this. But
8 somebody did it. You know.
9 And we have been told that it's a
10 lady that knew us, knew we were leaving, knew we
11 were there. The dog wasn't there, knew we
12 didn't use the alarm, you know, so --
13 TOM HANEY: And these were all
14 things that the Whites would have known?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
16 TOM HANEY: So do you suspect
17 Fleet?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, God, you know, I
19 just -- you know, I -- I guess in a way I look
20 at everybody as a suspect. And with this
21 erratic behavior it sounds pretty freaky to me.
22 Last night we were reading through
23 some paperwork or something, and I don't
24 remember whether somebody interviewed Fleet and
25 it was something that was like, wait a minute,
0084
1 that's (INAUDIBLE) I mean to -- but he knew --
2 he knew so much detail about the letter. It's
3 just something about, and this has been
4 somebody, I forget who -- I am rambling.
5 Somebody had interviewed Fleet and
6 then had written up a report about their
7 findings and that he seemed to know almost word
8 for word the ransom letter and he commented
9 about how the structure of it was so well tied
10 together. I mean, I have read the ransom
11 letter, I couldn't tell you what the structure
12 was, you know. He seemed like really interested
13 or something. It seemed unusual to me.
14 So I mean, it would be a horrible
15 blow if I do find out that it was somebody that
16 was that close to us. But it was somebody and
17 there is, I guess -- I guess could be anybody.
18 TOM HANEY: What is your current
19 relationship with the Whites?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: We have not -- we
21 have not spoken.
22 TOM HANEY: When is the last time?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Well I -- when we
24 left town, right in the mild the incident, I
25 remember we were staying with the Stines, Glen
0085
1 and Susan Stine, Fleet White went in to Glen
2 Stine's office at the university, and leaned
3 across the table, demanding to let the Stines
4 see us. And Glen Stine said Fleet, you know,
5 settle down.
6 TOM HANEY: Fleet wanted the Stines
7 to let them (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS)?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: He was just saying
9 that the Stines were keeping us away from them,
10 which wasn't the case. But he was going there,
11 he went into the vice president of the
12 university and (INAUDIBLE). You know what,
13 irrational behavior.
14 TOM HANEY: Is this--
15 PATSY RAMSEY: So anyway, before I
16 left town, (INAUDIBLE) before I left town I took
17 a little teddy bear up to this kid and left a
18 note, little teddy bear, and left a note, opened
19 a card that said you know, we are leaving town
20 or something, JonBenet loves you and whatever.
21 I don't know.
22 And then subsequently I had written
23 a couple of notes, I found a picture of Daphne,
24 that I sent to her and I think I wrote a note,
25 there was a story, one of the tabloids had their
0086
1 photographs, said Ramseys accusing best friends
2 or something, please don't believe these
3 horrible stories, you know.
4 But you know, not (INAUDIBLE) the
5 next thing I heard that they were down in the
6 governor's office (INAUDIBLE).
7 TOM HANEY: This behavior that you
8 have talked about with Fleet pounded on the desk
9 and things, is that out of character for him or
10 is he kind of like that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean as far as I
12 ever saw, because he was, he didn't -- I don't
13 know exactly what he did for a living. He was
14 not working a nine to five job. You know, I
15 think he was in California, had been in the oil
16 kind of business, so he said, but so he was
17 around the house a lot. He took the kids to
18 school. He dressed them. He -- we called him
19 affectionately Mr. Mom and he just said he was
20 taking a couple of years kind of hiatus to
21 figure it out and get something else going.
22 (The video portion of the tape
23 stopped). So he was always just very loving and
24 he was kind of like a lovable giant kind of, you
25 know, big guy, but just very tender and very --
0087
1 sweet guy, you know. So this, you know,
2 especially that time when he was in Father Rol's
3 office and his eyes were just crazed. I mean I
4 was just staying there going "oh, my God, what
5 has gotten into him."
6 So yes, yes. You know. There is a
7 flicker, you know.
8 TOM HANEY: Prior to the death,
9 what was Fleet's behavior like, especially
10 regarding JonBenet?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: He, I mean, adored
12 our children. You know. They played together a
13 lot. They were at our house, you know, a lot.
14 My children were at their house playing. They
15 had been up to the lake with us, a number of
16 times, for two, three weeks at a time.
17 (The video portion resumed.)
18 PATSY RAMSEY: You know we were I
19 mean --
20 TOM HANEY: Was there anything in
21 this prior behavior that looking back now seems
22 unusual?
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, Priscilla was
24 never crazy about me doing this whole pageant
25 with JonBenet, she thought that was just totally
0088
1 unnecessary, because she said you know, it's
2 just not the thing to do. Well, you know, I had
3 grown up doing it, I enjoyed it, I had a lot of
4 friends who had done it. I had very good
5 experience with it. So that's what I brought to
6 the table. My daughter was a performer, she was
7 beautiful, she was outgoing, and flourished in
8 that type of an environment. Daphne was not.
9 You know.
10 So Priscilla would oftentimes say
11 to me, you know, you just, you shouldn't do
12 that, you know, that's not a good thing to
13 happen.
14 I thought, you know, well, you
15 raise your children the way you do and we don't
16 all raise our children the same. So you know,
17 kind of looking back at that and think, you
18 know, did that really get to her or something.
19 I don't know (INAUDIBLE).
20 TOM HANEY: Was there anything else
21 in either of -- either's behavior prior to the
22 death that you like you said looking back now,
23 outside of the pageant thing?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I mean John said
25 -- he and Fleet sailed together, and they were
0089
1 taking -- and Fleet has been sailing for years.
2 I mean he sailed big yachts in the Pacific Ocean
3 and da-de-da-de-da, and so John was getting
4 ready for this Mackinaw Island race and he Fleet
5 were going to move our sailboat from Charlevoix
6 to wherever this race was going to be held, I
7 forget where, Chicago or something.
8 Well, they were in the moves and
9 were pulling into a harbor someplace, and had a
10 big wave and somehow the ropes got spun up in
11 the propeller, kicked off the engine, and they
12 were heading for the --
13 TOM HANEY: Dock?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: The wall. The ocean
15 wall or whatever they call that wall.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: The shore?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: The wall, whatever.
18 And he said Fleet -- and Fleet was supposed to
19 be the experienced yachtsman, you know, he said
20 Fleet just panicked, you know. I mean he was
21 just, John said he was really surprised because
22 I mean here is John who is certainly the layman,
23 and he immediately was trying to, you know, turn
24 the thing backwards and trying to get it out or
25 some, you know, but Fleet, he said Fleet just
0090
1 totally dropped his cool.
2 And long story short, somebody in
3 the yacht club saw them in trouble and the Coast
4 Guard came out and pulled them away from the
5 wall just in time. But John, kind of John's
6 first tip-off that, you know, he wasn't a -- as
7 capable under fire as maybe he would have
8 thought.
9 TOM HANEY: Did they -- did they
10 have words that day over it or was there some
11 problem or just like--
12 PATSY RAMSEY: No. You know, I
13 mean this was one of those stories you talk
14 about over a beer, you know (INAUDIBLE).
15 TOM HANEY: But nothing else?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
17 TOM HANEY: Anything else about the
18 Whites?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Just I mean, we
20 just, their children were virtually the same
21 age. I just thought we will be life-long
22 friends, because, you know, I enjoyed her, John
23 enjoyed him, the kids had each other. I mean it
24 was just a perfect -- we liked to do a lot of
25 the same things, they seemed to have
0091
1 discretionary income to be able to go places
2 although in that respect John pointed out that
3 all the yacht races and all that stuff was
4 always on our tab. I didn't really pay
5 attention to who was paying for what, but we
6 would pay for the crew and everybody.
7 I always got the impression that
8 Fleet and Priscilla had either family money or
9 something like that. You know. But John said
10 when it came down to actually, you know,
11 splitting it or splitting the hotel or
12 something, that never really happened. So --
13 TRIP DeMUTH: How long did you know
14 them?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: We met the summer I
16 came back from the lake the first time, so that
17 would have been like September-ish of '94.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: You called Fleet Mr.
19 Mom. Why do you do that?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Just because he was
21 at home all the time. He took the kids to
22 school and he went to the classroom and he, I
23 mean -- she called him her live-in. Their
24 live-in nanny.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Did Priscilla work?
0092
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
2 TRIP DeMUTH: So was she home most
3 of the time also?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
5 TRIP DeMUTH: Who would supervise
6 JonBenet and Burke when they would go over to
7 the Whites' house?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Both of them.
9 TRIP DeMUTH: Were there any
10 excursions or outings that Fleet White took your
11 children on as well as his children?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I am sure there
13 probably were.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: Any that you recall?
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Not right off the
16 top of my head. I mean we went biking, out on
17 the bike trails once all together, all of us.
18 TRIP DeMUTH: Would Fleet ever
19 baby-sit the children?
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I knew one
21 time in particular John, we were all up at the
22 lake, up at Charles Lake and John had to fly to
23 New York to do some business, New York City, and
24 Melinda was up there and the Whites. And
25 Priscilla said -- she said, "John is going to
0093
1 New York, let's go shopping for the day."
2 And I said, "who would keep the
3 kids?"
4 She said, "oh, Fleet can take care
5 of the kids."
6 I said, "oh, you're kidding."
7 She said, "no, come on, it would be
8 really fun, let's just go over there for the
9 day." I said okay.
10 So Melinda and Priscilla and myself
11 and Mike Archuleta and John flew to Manhattan,
12 John did his business there, and Priscilla and
13 Melinda and I and Mike Archuleta shopped around
14 for the day and then we flew back to Charles
15 Lake. When I got home, the house was a
16 disaster.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: How many times, how
18 often would Fleet be the baby-sitter for the
19 kids, that you can remember? Can you give me
20 any idea about that? Seldom, never, often?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I would say
22 when if my kids were over there, it would not be
23 unusual that he would be the baby-sitter,
24 because she might go running around or whatever
25 and he would sit or vice versa.
0094
1 TRIP DeMUTH: And how often were
2 your kids over at his home?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Maybe once a week.
4 We hadn't seen them a whole lot that fall,
5 because our children were going to different
6 schools. And that was a little sticking point
7 with Priscilla.
8 TRIP DeMUTH: How did JonBenet feel
9 about Fleet? Did she ever indicate anything?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: Seemed fine?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Thanks, Tom.
14 TOM HANEY: When is the last time
15 you had any contact, personal contact? You said
16 you went to the fair but--
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably that
18 episode in Father Rol's office.
19 TOM HANEY: Can you pin that down,
20 approximately when that would have been?
21 Ballpark figure.
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, early '97,
23 February-ish, probably.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: One more question.
25 If JonBenet was bothered by someone, do you
0095
1 think she would communicate that to you, or was
2 she a little more stoic about it, would keep it
3 to herself?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I think she would
5 have told because we had talked about all the
6 areas covered by your swim suit belong to
7 JonBenet. Not to anybody else. Mom can touch
8 those areas because, you know, and different
9 things, and Dr. Buff with mommy in the room,
10 those were the ground rules. Not daddy, not
11 Burke, not grampa, not anybody else but
12 JonBenet's, you know.
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Did she have any
14 difficulty approaching you and talking to you
15 about maybe other children at school she was
16 having difficulty with, would she share those
17 kind of points?
18